free speech

[Julesy]

Wow. I can't believe Matt is being criticised for letting people have opinions. And equally I think his judgement is usually spot on with what gets deleted and what gets left. But he is only human, has a demanding job, a family, hobbies and then this site!

This site is a virtual meeting place for shooters and people involved in the sport. What happens on here is no different to what happens at any gathering. I see it regularly in various settings. People form groups of friends, some can be friendly with everyone, some people really can't get on and genuinely don't like each other. An occasional remark will be taken out of context, another remark might be snide and have intent. Some days someone might be in a mood or be more sensitive than they usually are.

All this seems fairly normal to me. Isn't it just human behaviour? It is only because it is written down and stays with us for longer that it seems worse and it gives people more time to dissect and analyse everything.

 

[Hamster]

Matt,

You're maybe over analysing this if I may say. Context as always is very important so for instance calling someone gay isn't necessarily being homophobic, swearing too isn't always uncouth, often it can be very apt and funny. What you need is to stop people being an arse day in day out when it's obvious they're either doing it on purpose to get a rise or being obnoxious without realising it. 

 

[chubby]

Matt, I think it is great site as we can all keep in touch and air our view, also have a bit of a laugh, But I think you should ban all those male or female TARP shooters over 56 years of age as they seem to cause all the trouble.

 

[shootinguru]

The day that you introduce censorship on this site or any other its the beginning of the end of the site!

 

[ExSCA]

Matt,

You're maybe over analysing this if I may say. Context as always is very important so for instance calling someone gay isn't necessarily being homophobic, swearing too isn't always uncouth, often it can be very apt and funny. What you need is to stop people being an arse day in day out when it's obvious they're either doing it on purpose to get a rise or being obnoxious without realising it. 

Hamster - That's EXACTLY my point - too many rules, not fun. I don't want to sit in judgement on the way people act - but there have to be some non-negotiables.   I'm actually not over analysing, or planning to do any of the things above... my point was, how difficult it is to judge, and how easy it would be to over moderate the site. 

I will take exception to one comment though:

"for instance, calling someone gay isn't necessarily homophobic"

Yes it is - using someones sexuality as any kind of insult is unacceptable. 

I also agree that swearing isn't always uncouth - I swear, because it is big and very clever - but very early on in ShootClays history a number of members thought it would be nice if there was not too much swearing, however some members think its OK to misspell a swearword and then insult someone with it.  So, what should I do - slap their legs and then have them run off to Facebook to tell everyone how much ShootClay is becoming a nanny state. 

Shooting'guru' - I'll reserve the right to censor your PMT comment yesterday, which was another example of sexist behaviour. 

 

[** Pending Removal **]

Example ...in my era 'gay' means having a good time and nothing sexual.....mind you for all the above stated reasons one would not be able to use it today because some one is bound to take it the wrong way.

Hence having a gay old time (like i am doing at the minute) could or would be misunderstood.

Just keep going the way you are Matt and hope that some chill out.

This is a sport after all.

 

[SIMON-B]

I once wrote a post with a sweary word in it about strictly come dancing and you removed it immediately. pleasae add this to your list (strictly come dancing that is).

Thanks for creating this fourum Matt it has been a valuable resorce and good fun to boot. I dont envy your position as a moderator, sadly self moderation by some poeople is lacking and sometimes forgotten myself included. :hunter:    

 

[Jeremy Baker]

On various Forums I use

(I have real friends promise)

They use tempory bans for people.

One Month Two months etc.

They also publish a ban list.

Can be effective.

ps I have never been banned. That's a public school eductation for you, or the fact I can't arsed to argue..................

 

[shootinguru]

I'll reserve the right to censor your PMT comment yesterday, which was another example of sexist  behaviour!

OH what different times we live in!   I used to laugh at George Orwells 1984 thinking what crap it was, but I realise that it has over the last 30 years or so crept up on us without us realising?

You cannot say PMT or say kill and lost, clay pigeon is a no no! I am sure glad that I have had 45+ years CLAY PIGEON shooting before

all this political correctness is welded into place! 

 

[Les53]

Matt, I think it is great site as we can all keep in touch and air our view, also have a bit of a laugh, But I think you should ban all those male or female TARP shooters over 56 years of age as they seem to cause all the trouble.

Oh here we go, another ageist hedge monkey !!!! Now listen to me young man..........................  :laugh:   

 

[Les53]

Well Ian (ips) you sure opened a can of worms this time!!!!!! ( I thought it was my turn to do it, I'm sure you already had your go!!) :hunter:   :hunter:   :hunter:

 

[ExSCA]

OH what different times we live in!   I used to laugh at George Orwells 1984 thinking what crap it was, but I realise that it has over the last 30 years or so crept up on us without us realising?

What a load of rubbish... you choose to 'insult' someone, by referencing PMT, and I'm a dictator?   I know the modern world be a big and scary place, but using a female medical condition to insult someone is pretty daft. I was just trying to save you from looking like a fool. 

 

[clayclouter]

For what its worth I shall shove in my 10p worth on this subject.

I pride myself on not taking the forum too seriously, yet not too long ago I had a spat with LES 53 which got rather out of hand all over semi autos for gods sake!! I went beyond just debate and started to personalise the argument, I took exception to LES whom I have never met ,nor know anything about apart from his forum persona on here. It was quite apparent that Les hates Semis Autos and I quite like them so grounds for a punch up seemed ideal!!

We duly had one, we traded desperately held opinions on the  pros and cons of  semi autos and others joined in and took sides or quietly stoked the fires from the stands! this went on for a day or so and culminated in me making some very personal remarks to LES.  I left the forum feeling happy and vindicated ?? why? because I had just insulted a fellow member?

Why am I recounting all of this? because at the end of the day, we are just deluding ourselves if we think our opinions are so important that we should insist that others should not oppose them no matter how diametrically their opinion might differ. This is a forum and people make provocative statements all the time, which is par for the course, my experience with Les brought home to me the Mantra that Matt  always puts forward on here JUST RESPECT EACH OTHER. We may well not agree on many things but there should be space to allow for that and even if a view is offensive to someone then it should be ignored and not given the oxygen of further response or publicity. On reflection of my behaviour I apologised to LES, not for my opinions but for the personal remarks and my lack of Respect for him as a fellow member. I don't feel any less of a man for doing such a thing because I backed off and let the subject drop, I just realised there are many more important things in life than winning a meaning less argument on a forum!! 

Having said all of that I must make clear my position with Clever, I do not see any situation where I could possibly apologise to him for anything!!

 

[Hamster]

Well I've heard gay and cylinder chokes mentioned in one sentence and thought it was more funny than offensive.

 

[ExSCA]

On various Forums I use

(I have real friends promise)

They use tempory bans for people.

One Month Two months etc.

They also publish a ban list.

Can be effective.

ps I have never been banned. That's a public school eductation for you, or the fact I can't arsed to argue..................

I'm with you - I've seen those bans in place... I have a button I can press right above everyone's name on the forum.

The problem is - who do I ban? Who has broken the rules?  Who fancies dealing with the ten people that will moan about me being a dictator if I ban person X or person Y. 

 

[Hamster]

I'd happily MOD for a month or three, reckon I'd be pretty damn fair too.

 

[Jeremy Baker]

I'm with you - I've seen those bans in place... I have a button I can press right above everyone's name on the forum.

The problem is - who do I ban? Who has broken the rules?  Who fancies dealing with the ten people that will moan about me being a dictator if I ban person X or person Y. 

Its your site matey.

Only you can make that choice.

If you let other have an opinion its a witch hunt.

This is a free site created by you.

If they don't like your choices then they vote with their fingers and type a new url.

 

[Les53]

For what its worth I shall shove in my 10p worth on this subject.

I pride myself on not taking the forum too seriously, yet not too long ago I had a spat with LES 53 which got rather out of hand all over semi autos for gods sake!! I went beyond just debate and started to personalise the argument, I took exception to LES whom I have never met ,nor know anything about apart from his forum persona on here. It was quite apparent that Les hates Semis Autos and I quite like them so grounds for a punch up seemed ideal!!

We duly had one, we traded desperately held opinions on the  pros and cons of  semi autos and others joined in and took sides or quietly stoked the fires from the stands! this went on for a day or so and culminated in me making some very personal remarks to LES.  I left the forum feeling happy and vindicated ?? why? because I had just insulted a fellow member?

Why am I recounting all of this? because at the end of the day, we are just deluding ourselves if we think our opinions are so important that we should insist that others should not oppose them no matter how diametrically their opinion might differ. This is a forum and people make provocative statements all the time, which is par for the course, my experience with Les brought home to me the Mantra that Matt  always puts forward on here JUST RESPECT EACH OTHER. We may well not agree on many things but there should be space to allow for that and even if a view is offensive to someone then it should be ignored and not given the oxygen of further response or publicity. On reflection of my behaviour I apologised to LES, not for my opinions but for the personal remarks and my lack of Respect for him as a fellow member. I don't feel any less of a man for doing such a thing because I backed off and let the subject drop, I just realised there are many more important things in life than winning a meaning less argument on a forum!! 

Having said all of that I must make clear my position with Clever, I do not see any situation where I could possibly apologise to him for anything!!

 Yes David, It was all sorted in no time. Thinking back on it, I guess we both went off half cocked!!!! 

 

[ehb102]

I don't think I as a forum user should have to put myself in a position of policing other forum users. Admin should just say "It's not acceptable here" and that's the end of it. That's what the report to moderator button is for. Admin will either agree or disagree with the complaint. There shouldn't be a scrap over what what is and isn't acceptable use of language. Sometimes we do or say things that have implications we don't realise, but the appropriate way for us to react to being corrected it to admit we were wrong, apologise and not do it again. 

I'm willing to accept that I could be tougher on moderation - and start telling people to dial it back - but trust me, everytime I do any kind of moderation on this site in plain view, I get another thread about 'FREE SPEECH' and how I should do things differently.  I run this FOR the members - not for myself. 

and maybe this will be the new rule:

• Admin is free to moderate discussions appropriately and WILL NOT engage in ANY discussion about why something is moderated. Members who do not respect Admins decision will be banned. First for seven days, then permanently.  Threads regarding moderator decisions will be locked and deleted without question. 

I have no problem with that rule. A message board like this is private property and comes with liabilities. It's a benevolent dictatorship, until the day you want to set up a charter and a system of membership and voting. Does running things "for the members" mean the 1% who post regularly and the 5% who post often, the 20% who post rarely or the rest of the members? I forget whose model that is, but the numbers generally hold true for most message boards.

People who talk about free speech should check out what it actually means. No freedom of speech is absolute, it is subject to all kinds of limitations, such as law on libel, obscenities, copyright and sedition. Also the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights specifically clarifies duties and responsibilities that come along with that right, including respecting the rights of others. 

Warnings are used on another  message board I frequent. Three warnings, then a temporary ban. Lots of trouble continually, ban permanently. Threads are often locked to prevent escalation of trouble. 

I'm not sure I fancy that - doesn't sound like a forum to me - but is that members want? 

"Forum" means "marketplace" or "public square". If you decide you want this to be like an unstructured public space where people can drift in and out that's your right. However, in the real world if you have a public square that is dominated by a few loud, ever-present intimidating gangs then most people feel intimidated and stay away. This effectively stops it being a place where ideas can be exchanged for most people. In a physical square there is leadership from the elected authorities in the form of rules and rules enforcement. The alternative is Lord of the Flies. By asking that question in that way at this time you are skewing the answer. It is incredibly hard to stand up to a vocal and established group. 

I feel like this argument is becoming circular. People say "The vocal minority are driving lots of people away." Admin: "Okay, we'll look at changing things. Is that what people want?" Loud vocal minority: "No!" 

What the answer to your edit/hide/ban questions are will depend on context so can initially be monitored via the report button. If it bothers someone enough to report it, then moderators should act (or not). And if they do act, they shouldn't be saying "I don't agree with it but some people are upset..." 

ShootClay is yours, Matt. You lead, we can follow or not as we see fit. 

 

[Sian]

I love visiting shootclay forum, I like reading and following the technical bits - can't contribute much because I know nothing but I am learning.  I feel comfortable giving an opinion without waiting to be struck down unlike other sites I have visited.  I think generally this is my safe site and for that Matt feel proud because even though I am at the other end of a computer and no-one can see me or really hurt me there are other sites that make me feel very uncomfortable sometimes.    I love the general fluffy rabbits, I am learning slowly that certain people have known each other a long time and the way they talk to each other is acceptable.  Where there is obvious malice it makes me feel sad and cross at the same time.  I love seeing members out on shoots, sometimes I am a bit shy especially if I can't remember what you look like.   I think if we were more open about who we are, what we are like as people maybe in our opening posts in the Welcome section it might help.

For me:

I am generally a calm, happy go lucky person although I can be stubborn and stroppy but mainly with the old man or in frustration regarding my shooting.  I like to think I am very accepting of all types of people, I don't care what your job, politics, religion or sexual preferences are - be nice to me and I will be nice to you and even if you are not nice to me I tend to remain nice or at least polite.  I am pretty even tempered, I prefer to be a peacemaker than a warrior, I am self deprecating in general with regard to my skills in shooting.  I get really excited at the prospect of reaching 50% regularly, I will show off if I manage to hit a clay that a AA has found difficult.   I will continue to bore you all with my pathetic scores each week although I did not this week.   (Macc Ladd keep cheering me on it helps when I just want to wrap my gun around a tree) .   I got 52/100 at Four Counties (Yeh!!!) and 41 I think at Westonwood (blanked two stands again).  I can get very emotional about certain subjects but not to the point usually where I am offensive.

I would much prefer someone saying I was out of order straight away than not.  I am sometimes crude or suggestive (although JKC you are the true Queen in this respect ) but if I ever overstep the mark just let me know.  I am a swearer but I think I have been pretty good.  I don't have a problem with general mickey taking of me at all.  I am not that sensitive about males v females - most times it is meant in a lighthearted way and there are so many funny gender inspired jokes.  

Matt I think you are a star particularly when you sort out my login etc.  Keep going.  

xx

PS: I just thought of something which I do which is possibly the most irritating thing about me on the forum and will upset some members who do not like to stray from topic -  for which I apologise but will probably not change -  and that is I do go off topic especially if lead astray.