free speech

[no.1topdog]

I haven't joined this forum to upset anybody and would be mortified if I had. I know I have a unique (warped maybe) sense of humour, and I'm sure some people just don't get it sometimes. The only person I am conscious of being derogatory to is myself. If I ever put anything on here that upsets anyone, Please, Please, Please tell me, either on the thread or through a PM. I don't block anybody, I read every topic on here, and I will answer you (politely).

Despite my obvious similarity to a dog, I don't bite!   :biggrin:

 

[** Pending Removal **]

+1 to all the above.

 

[Steve Lovatt]

Is that mr Jekyll at the door mr Hyde !!

 

[** Pending Removal **]

Is that mr Jekyll at the door mr Hyde !!

Are you referring to yourself or making any specific coded comment to anyone else on here.

?

 

[Steve Lovatt]

i dont think iam reffering to myself , over the past week to ten days i have had a few comments flung at me over certain topics or grounds and i think whats the point ,i even had a moment of thinking i am not going on again , but then i hear so many positive comments at the shoots and met a lot of people through here i have decided to stay ,but if something is said that i dont agree with i will say so not in an argumentative way even though sometimes one is never allowed to have the last word 

nicola i thought your comment on face book was interesting last night though

time to fine tune the white gold now , good day to you all

steve

 

[ehb102]

I wish you would all learn 

How does anyone learn anything without enforced boundaries and consequences? 

I understand your position, Matt, but I think that your principle of being permissive is effectively exclusive. It's rather like Usenet.

 

[jwpzx9r]

I like this website its a great source of information for the average shooter. I have been given a great number of tips and I have had some great debates about various aspects of shooting. Through this site I have bought things for my shooting activities and struck up some good conversations with the people I dealt with. I have had the chance to topic drift into other areas of mutual interest and really enjoyed those chats... sorry not everybody likes topic drift   All of this is the good side of the website and thanks to those I have connected with so to speak

Then we get situations or subjects of debate like this and this really saddens me personally because it happens regularly and it normally becomes some sort of school playground name calling session, most of the time because of a differing of opinions. If anybody on here seriously thinks that for some reason their opinion and theirs alone is the correct one they should not be entering into an online debate, the internet is littered with so called experts and it is up to the individual to decide who is BS'ing  and who is not.

What happens when people who give their own opinion and get shouted down by the experts is they just stop contributing or are reticent to start debates or post on threads and the website shrivels and dies.

 

[Les53]

I think I can safely say that most of us enjoy this forum and that Matt does a very good job of running it. I for one will just not comment on anything which is obviously meant to be nasty in any way. Yes there are often wind ups on here, especially between the likes of ips and myself,yes a lot of thread drift too,but such things are just for fun. If something is just downright nasty then it is best to ignore it and let the mods deal with it. They do I think have the power to expel people if they see fit.

 

[ExSCA]

How does anyone learn anything without enforced boundaries and consequences? 

I understand your position, Matt, but I think that your principle of being permissive is effectively exclusive. It's rather like Usenet.

A little out of context Liz...I actually said:

I wish you would all learn to get along, stop hectoring each other, stop insulting each other with snide comments, ignore the bits you don't like or don't have anything to comment on sensibly.

Enforced boundaries? Really? People need to be told to be polite, and civil, and not insult each other? I need to have rules for that?  People cannot see the difference between jokes, fluffy rabbits, snide comments and downright rudeness?  Do we all need rules for what is what there? 

I wonder how anyone who acts like this gets through life off-line... we don't learn that stuff as adults, we conform to what is normal, civil, decent behaviour. I don't see that online should be any different. (Maybe I live enough of my life online that the boundaries are blurred). 

If I am in a social setting, and someone comes across as an overbearing, hectoring, know-it-all, I don't smash them in the face or immediately call them a c*** - I do one of two things, I debate or argue with them in a civil fashion - or I walk away and ignore them. If I really don't like them, I might avoid interactions with them in future - but the reality is that I don't like everyone I have to work or socialise with so I learn to cope with them.  

I certainly don't look around for the rules on the wall that describe some imaginary parameters of how THEY should act.  I look inside myself at the parameters of how I should act, and then hopefully I act accordingly. 

. 

 

[Sian]

 

[SIMON-B]

This is not a question of free speech but a consequence of misinterpretation, missunderstood houmour and personality clashes. Recent events in the Ukraine throw this whole debate straight down the toilet of inane bickering. This is just an OPINION not FACT. I like hearing other peoples opinions they can be challenging or reaffirming and the forum would be for the worse if not aired by its members. 

" stay classy ShootClay "

 

[Hamster]

Enforced boundaries? Really? People need to be told to be polite, and civil, and not insult each other? I need to have rules for that?  People cannot see the difference between jokes, fluffy rabbits, snide comments and downright rudeness?  Do we all need rules for what is what there? 

Matt, 

We're all very lucky to have this site as dedicated clay shooters, I can personally without a moments doubt say I have either physically met or virtually got to know some of the most knowledgeable, articulate, helpful and all round nice people ever, some make me feel inferior in their poise and balanced take on things in fact.

People have differences of opinion, style of writing and internet demeanour but I am pleased to say that some of the more combative of our members have of late been noticeably more likeable in their persona but I'm afraid if you want a straight answer to the quote above then YES you do need to set boundaries and tell some people what lines must not be crossed. You and others work very hard to moderate ShootClay but I for one do think you need to give the odd warning or months ban etc, for the greater good.

 

[ExSCA]

 

[ips]

Policing anything on the internet is an impossible task, and expecting Matt to do it on here is unreasonable.

Just to clarify I have never asked admin to do anything on my behalf. He asked a question and I answered. Furthermore for the good of the forum I started this topic (not for the first time I may add) with the hope that we would all try to get on and not post obvious insults to each other. I have never said anything about the odd joke between like minded people it is the confrontational manner and play ground stlye name calling that I find tedious.

 

[Darkside]

A little out of context Liz...I actually said:

I wish you would all learn to get along, stop hectoring each other, stop insulting each other with snide comments, ignore the bits you don't like or don't have anything to comment on sensibly.

Enforced boundaries? Really? People need to be told to be polite, and civil, and not insult each other? I need to have rules for that?

If I am in a social setting, and someone comes across as an overbearing, hectoring, know-it-all, I don't smash them in the face or immediately call them a c*** - I do one of two things, I debate or argue with them in a civil fashion - or I walk away and ignore them. If I really don't like them, I might avoid interactions with them in future...

.

Matt, that is exactly what is happening...people are 'walking away' from Shootclay. You are a very nice person, not everyone who posts on Shootclay are nice people, some (a small but vocal minority) are internet trolls, you are effectively telling them, "do/say what you want, the most I shall do as forum owner is tidy the mess" the pm's and Facebook messages I've had confirm this!!! Hey, I know I've been involved in my fair share of arguments on here with certain people, as I told you by pm, everyone I can't stand or don't agree with is on ignore now and staying there, all the threads that go tits up go on ignore now too!!! This is a very good site for information, unfortunatly trolls have free reign to say and behave as they please. Rather than feed them, I for one shall ignore them!!! The members who constantly talk trivial verbal dihorea (very small but vocal minority) are all on ignore too!!! I would never want to talk such bollocks face to face, so why read it!?!?

Remember...don't feed the trolls!!!

 

[bostonmick]

I for one think this is a fantastic site.I think a lot of harmless fluffy rabbits can be taken out of context when said in text no emotion come through.i think we would all be the losers if this site was to fold.one mans joke is anothers insult.i have never taken offence at anything anyone has ever said to me on these forums not that I have found anyone on this site to be anything other than friendly in their manner.

 

[** Pending Removal **]

i dont think iam reffering to myself , over the past week to ten days i have had a few comments flung at me over certain topics or grounds and i think whats the point ,i even had a moment of thinking i am not going on again , but then i hear so many positive comments at the shoots and met a lot of people through here i have decided to stay ,but if something is said that i dont agree with i will say so not in an argumentative way even though sometimes one is never allowed to have the last word

nicola i thought your comment on face book was interesting last night though

time to fine tune the white gold now , good day to you all

steve

Yes I agree with all that.

I think everyone should be able to have an opinion without being attacked for it.

Yes a couple of my female friends have told me via Facebook that they will no longer post due to misogynistic comments made by the odd one or two on here. They have also made this clear to Matt.

I don't take the comments to heart but it is interesting that these types do not think I should have an opinion.

But the World is there for everyone to enjoy, so I like you will continue to post. After all....I was here from the beginning before anyone knew what shootclay was....and over the time have introduced many people to it. It is a great place for learning, making shooting friends (for those that did not have any) and discussion.

Got to go now as competition has started....will check back later.

Have a great day to all those pulling the trigger in beautiful sunshine. Long may it last.

 

[ehb102]

Enforced boundaries? Really? People need to be told to be polite, and civil, and not insult each other? I need to have rules for that?  People cannot see the difference between jokes, fluffy rabbits, snide comments and downright rudeness?  Do we all need rules for what is what there? 

The tone is set for the forum, then anything that goes against the tone of the forum needs to be pointed out to people precisely because people have different interpretations of what is and what is not acceptable. The point I was making with my judicious snipping is that with so many differences of opinion there has to be something that's a guideline on what is acceptable that is demonstrated to people when they go over that or they won't know.  People may think they are being perfectly respectful when they are coming across as aggressive and hectoring. In my view it is not unfair for a mod to point out that fact and ask people to dial it back, or simply tell someone to drop their argument. I understand that's a more heavy-handed approach than you like. It has been my experience that after a few weeks of moderator intervention people generally get the hang of any shift in forum culture and respond reasonably well to small interjections so it goes back to being light-handed. I still stand by the Geek social fallacies

As you said, people leave a situation where others are behaving unbearably. We have different levels of interaction with people at different levels of intimacy and familiarity and different tenors. I think there's a gap behind what you see as acceptable and what other people see as acceptable on a web forum. You get to choose what is acceptable, it's your forum, and if expectations are set clearly then that staves off a lot of problems. 

 I don't see that online should be any different. (Maybe I live enough of my life online that the boundaries are blurred). 

I think that David Suler's research (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Online_disinhibition_effect) shows that for most people online is different. Certainly I feel differently about people I've met in person IRL when they post something to people with whom I have no connection.

 

[no.1topdog]

Reading all this I'm becoming paranoid and afraid to post anything! (Apart form this post of course).

I'm interpreting this like I'm going to offend someone no matter what I post, particularly if I say something in jest, and I can't be doing with that pressure.

I don't know if I'm on James Johnston's "ignore list". I don't know if I'm on anybody else's "ignore list", and the worst part is I do care if I'm being "ignored"

Everbody on here has experience and information to pass on, or they have a genuine yearning for information and feel this is the place to speak to like minded individuals who can offer their advice.

This is a great resource for everybody and I for one don't want to see it destroyed.

I'm going to watch for a while to see how this pans out.   :music:

 

[ExSCA]

Right - so then, lets break this down into some scenarios, maybe to help the soft, liberal, democratic admin out:

• Someone uses bad language in a post (and it gets past my rudimentary word swappy thing) : Ban or Not Ban? Hide the post or don't hide the post?
  
• Someone deliberately misspells a swearword so the inference is there : Ban or Not Ban? Hide the post or don't hide the post?
  
• Someone says something sexist to a woman : Ban or Not Ban? Hide the post or don't hide the post?
  
• Someone says something sexist to men : Ban or Not Ban?  Hide the post or don't hide the post?
  
• Someone says something homophobic, racist or otherwise hateful (like steel is better than lead) : OK that one is easy - Ban.  And Hide the post
  

Right - now some grey areas - where the answer is subjective:

• Someone is grumpy and posts something miserable and curmudgeonly : Ban or Not Ban? Hide the post or don't hide the post?
  
• Someone is hectoring other people and has an opinion about everything, generally getting on everyone's nerves : Ban or Not Ban? Hide the post or don't hide the post?
  
• Someone is making snide comments in one thread, clearly about other people : Ban or Not Ban? Hide the post or don't hide the post?
  
• Someone is an irascible **** (insert geographic stereotype here) : Ban or Not Ban? Hide the post or don't hide the post?
  

What people don't seem to understand is that for every email and PM I get asking that I ban (or deal with) one person, I get a corresponding email or PM telling me that the same person is amazing and the other person should be banned.   The thing with Clay Shooting forums is that both sides of the coin get argued all the time. 

I'm willing to accept that I could be tougher on moderation - and start telling people to dial it back - but trust me, everytime I do any kind of moderation on this site in plain view, I get another thread about 'FREE SPEECH' and how I should do things differently.  I run this FOR the members - not for myself. 

and maybe this will be the new rule:

• Admin is free to moderate discussions appropriately and WILL NOT engage in ANY discussion about why something is moderated. Members who do not respect Admins decision will be banned. First for seven days, then permanently.  Threads regarding moderator decisions will be locked and deleted without question. 

I'm not sure I fancy that - doesn't sound like a forum to me - but is that members want? 

Anybody else fancy drawing up a new list of rules for the forum?