I am in agreement with Wonko. I do not understand the practice of putting a gun in a slip after every stand. It relies on the owner alone checking a gun is safe and then placing it into a opaque slip (which stops the gun being seen by anybody else) where it could discharge if a cartridge has been left in it - perhaps the top barrel which is not ejected after a single shot and then forgotten about. Most good health & safety practitioners will tell you that the biggest risk is the "human factor" and the mistakes we make. I would much prefer all and sundry to know my gun is safe and I would much prefer to see others open so I know they are. If my gun gets lightly damaged from clays etc whilst visible then I will accept this to show others I am safe. To me, a gun is open unless in the cage or (very occasionally) in a rack and then closed barrel upright. Personally my guns are in "take down" slips which I take then from when I assemble the guns and replace them in when I have done.
Closing the gun
- Thread starter ChrisPackham
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Wonko the Sane
Well-known member
No, I don't think so. Those are two very different words. It seems to me that attributing negligence to every accident would be presumptuous.
MartynB
Well-known member
I’m not being contentious here , but within the confines of a structured clay shoot if I accept that it’s my responsibility to check my gun is loaded or unloaded , and I accept it’s my responsibility to keep the muzzles pointed in a safe direction at all times where would an accident come into it ? If I fail on either of those points I’m simply negligent .
Lloyd
Well-known member
If one neglected to clean their gun and something went wrong, that would be no accident.
If a cartridges had a misfire, you waited the prescribed 20 seconds and on opening the gun, the cartridge discharged rearwards, that would be an accident.
An accident is an event that happens by chance, without apparent or deliberate cause.
Neglect implies failure to take proper care.
If a cartridges had a misfire, you waited the prescribed 20 seconds and on opening the gun, the cartridge discharged rearwards, that would be an accident.
An accident is an event that happens by chance, without apparent or deliberate cause.
Neglect implies failure to take proper care.
From a legal perspective, there are rarely accidents as such - the Courts look for a cause - negligence, misadventure, intention etc. It is quite possible however to have accidental occurrences and often accidental consequences - one of the oft quoted cases involves the "accidental" discharge of a shotgun and its worth a read of the summary - search for Grey v Barr [1971]. I would also say the law does recognize "inadvertence" with this being an occasional slip or failure to remember to do something - in health & safety this is key consideration.
If one neglected to clean their gun and something went wrong, that would be no accident.
If a cartridges had a misfire, you waited the prescribed 20 seconds and on opening the gun, the cartridge discharged rearwards, that would be an accident.
In the first case you are stating the cause of the incident - the failure to clean the gun. In the second you are looking at the outcome - the guns discharge. That's not wrong but it's easy with the latter to miss the real cause and assume it is something irrelevant when it may well not be - i.e. - what if I stored my cartridges incorrectly, unknown to me they got wet whilst I was away on holiday, and then there was a misfire, and I then left the gun closed for 20 seconds etc.
Regarding gun cleaning, the Courts allow for personal opinion and choice. One owner may clean his once a month and another very time he shoots. One may 'neglect' to clean his gun but if, for 20 years, it has worked without fault, he might not be negligent if it remains as safe as the regularly cleaned gun.
I prefer the gun open and visible rational because I know I & others are not perfect. I deal with personal injury claims - some horrible. I am risk averse. But I know I could be inadvertent and miss something. Routine creates muscle memory and I could over rely on doing something without utmost concentration. I try my utmost when shooting - I never shoot if tired etc. It keeps me on my toes to know that others can easily check & see what I am doing. I think that's the issue with a few game shooters. Nobody sees them and they assume personally they are safe when they are not or they have adopted habits which only look bad to others who would not, when they rough shoot, be there.
If one neglected to clean their gun and something went wrong, that would be no accident.
If a cartridges had a misfire, you waited the prescribed 20 seconds and on opening the gun, the cartridge discharged rearwards, that would be an accident.
In the first case you are stating the cause of the incident - the failure to clean the gun. In the second you are looking at the outcome - the guns discharge. That's not wrong but it's easy with the latter to miss the real cause and assume it is something irrelevant when it may well not be - i.e. - what if I stored my cartridges incorrectly, unknown to me they got wet whilst I was away on holiday, and then there was a misfire, and I then left the gun closed for 20 seconds etc.
Regarding gun cleaning, the Courts allow for personal opinion and choice. One owner may clean his once a month and another very time he shoots. One may 'neglect' to clean his gun but if, for 20 years, it has worked without fault, he might not be negligent if it remains as safe as the regularly cleaned gun.
I prefer the gun open and visible rational because I know I & others are not perfect. I deal with personal injury claims - some horrible. I am risk averse. But I know I could be inadvertent and miss something. Routine creates muscle memory and I could over rely on doing something without utmost concentration. I try my utmost when shooting - I never shoot if tired etc. It keeps me on my toes to know that others can easily check & see what I am doing. I think that's the issue with a few game shooters. Nobody sees them and they assume personally they are safe when they are not or they have adopted habits which only look bad to others who would not, when they rough shoot, be there.
I go with that... and a bit further. Where I shoot you are told when you can load your gun and told when the series is finished and guns should be unloaded. The only gun I see as being in anyway contentious when it comes to whether a gun is loaded or un loaded on a trap ground is a semi ... which, controversially, I think should be banned! ... not going to win any friends with that one :lol:
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As previously stated there is no right or wrong. I would never closed but bringing stock up. But some do to me it’s dangerous and if goes off would easily fall from grip. Nor would I ever put in slip empty.
peoples opinion are just those opinions
peoples opinion are just those opinions
Wonko the Sane
Well-known member
I'm wondering how "stupid" might fit into this. "Stupid" could easily precipitate situations that are neither negligent or accidental. Could some miscreant be sued or charged with " supidity"? :lolu:
westley
Well-known member
I can recall Reffing a comp. a few years ago where along came what was obviously a nervous shooter. He was trying so hard to do everything correctly, until he closed the gun. As he 'flipped' the barrels upwards I saw a cartridge slip out. I decided to say nothing but let him call for the first target. He had pre - mounted his gun and as the target came into view there was an audible 'click'. I have never seen anyone go so crimson, I was struggling to keep a straight face. I told him it should have been called a lost pair, but gave him another go anyway.
El Spavo
Well-known member
To be honest, this is what I was told from day one... let everyone else see what's going on with your gun as it makes others feel safe and puts them at ease. Made sense to me, so I kept doing it. Rarely put it in a slip unless it happens to be a rare day where it's raining a bit harder when I'm out and I just want to keep it a bit dryer than it would in the open.
Yup. We in the fire service call it an RTC now instead of RTA... collision instead of accident, as accident is aportioning blame to someone and therefore means someone has to be found responsible.
See the OP has thrown in a hand grenade and done a bunk!
no reply from that bombshell as to what they're thinking... either sitting back and chuckling, or holding a cuppa and worried they'll look a bit of a knob at their response judging by the reaction to that one opening salvo! 
Paul120
Well-known member
My turn. This POA thing. How do I adjust it so the POI matches my T shirt.See the OP has thrown in a hand grenade and done a bunk!
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Wonko the Sane
Well-known member
It has to be British Racing Green or they will never match
ChrisPackham
Well-known member
Not intentional hand grenade, I've just been working hard to finish for the week and head off shooting/loading.To be honest, this is what I was told from day one... let everyone else see what's going on with your gun as it makes others feel safe and puts them at ease. Made sense to me, so I kept doing it. Rarely put it in a slip unless it happens to be a rare day where it's raining a bit harder when I'm out and I just want to keep it a bit dryer than it would in the open.
Yup. We in the fire service call it an RTC now instead of RTA... collision instead of accident, as accident is aportioning blame to someone and therefore means someone has to be found responsible.
See the OP has thrown in a hand grenade and done a bunk!
I was referencing the inclination of many shooters of all guises (i don't distinguish and create them and us, if shooters are not united we will only hasten our downfall) to slam barrels up into action which combined with the leverage effect of barrels makes quite a collision. Wood to metal means that should cartridge go off unintentionally all you will hurt is the grass and maybe damage underpants but nothing more. I also notice that lots of people don't us safety catches, although they cant be relied on the have some merit. Dunno, anyway, time to pack the car..
Martinj
Well-known member
Bebo
Well-known member
And all that is hurt if you are in a clay stand point the gun straight ahead of you or into the air would be the air, or maybe some trees or a bank if there was one out in front.
Pretty much every sporting clay gun comes off the shelf with the safety disabled. There is a reason for that - they are absolutely pointless as safety features for clay shooters. Gun should be open when out of the slip, unless you're in the cage ready to shoot. Any other way isn't safe.
Applying game shooting conventions to clay shooting is a totally pointless waste of time.
Martinj
Well-known member
Rock on Bebo!
Bebo
Well-known member
"Game shooting conventions" .. would that be a bunch of roasters out in a field waving their guns around? I was beating on a shoot where some arsehole with their very expensive side by side closed and pointing back over their shoulder was standing talking to his like minded buddies at the end of a drive rotating back and forth while beaters dived about trying to get out of his line of disaster. Not one word was said to the tw*t... because he owned the estate! That was just prior to the crash in 2008.. Later on he had to sell up... not an easy thing to do when there is a mega recession in play.
ChrisPackham
Well-known member
Its a good habit to adopt, I have had my clay guns switched to safety to avoid getting used to not having one and watching that Grouse whistle past to the resonate sound of 'click' and the chorus of profanity.
No downside in having a safety on a clay gun, no downside in closing a gun properly either..
