refing

[jwpzx9r]

Have to disagree John. If there is a rule which potentially affects my score I want to know about it. If I think the ref is applying a rule incorrectly I will tell him/her. 

how many times have you seen a shooter:-

1/ open a gun after a misfire ( for whatever reason) - honk!

2/ shoot and miss a slow released target - honk!

3/ shoot at a no-bird (irregular flight but not broken) and miss - honk!

Alternatively how many times have you seen a shooter be given a slow-release or irregular target again after they shot at it and missed and then put their hand up and arguing? If that person then wins the comp by 1 target they have done so incorrectly.

If all you do is shoot and are prepared to accept whatever the ref says then fine, but if I have to take responsibility for the button I want to be sure of rules. 

DT

I am not going to disagree with that Greg BUT it is not up to the shooter to ref the line. If a ref makes a decision that a shooter disagrees with the shooter can ask for an adjudication can he not, but to argue his case with the ref directly could just inflame the situation. I don't know all the rules but know the things that could cost me targets straight off such as the ones mentioned above, I reckon the shooter in the case you mention was at it. I think he knew the rule but took the option of having a first barrel kill rather than miss first then try for the second... I know I would given the ruling... but then he missed

As to the no bird issue. I have seen shooters not shoot at what they thought/claimed to be a no bird or irregular release and got nothing but a stare and HONK ! Some refs just don't see targets the way the shooter does.

 

[paul b]

The point i was making in the opening post,was if you dont agree with the ref take it to jury,a full blown barny on layout makes everyones day miserable .

 

[Salopian]

This is an amateur sport, a hobby , a pastime, enjoy it .

The man who doesn't make mistakes, makes nothing usually.

I refereed on Sunday and made a mistake, immediately put my hand up , corrected the mistake, apologised to the competitor, he nodded and accepted my decision and we moved on.

My refereeing colleagues were all total novices, refereeing a line of GB and TOP competitors in their chosen discipline, it was conducted with good grace on everyone's part and was a pleasure to be part of. Made all the more so by one Super Hero who remembered me from the Sealand and Garlands heydays.

I thought he was a God , but he made me feel like one.

 

[40UP]

on refusing a target at southern counties

Nigel: what was wrong with that?

Me: slow release

Nigel: I'll allow it this time but if it happens again it's lost

Me: huh?

 

[Dog Tyred]

I thought ref could use discretion on a slow pull or iregular target regardless of if it was shot at. ??

same thing if shooter claims a balk due to distraction??

Ian

Totally agree for a regular comp but for a selection shoot or major championship (where there are lots of know-it-alls who will go running off to the jury if they see a fellow competitor gaining an advantage) I'd rather not be dragged in front of the jury to explain my actions. That said, rules should be clear and not open to interpretation and be applied evenly across all comps.

I believe the 'discretion' regarding a slow release or irregular target is the ref deciding whether he agrees if it was a slow release or irregular target provided the shooter has not shot at it and stuck their hand up. The rule says if the shooter fires at it he has accepted it. Obviously this does not apply to an incomplete target which is repeat target even if the shooter fires at it (hit or miss).

I had an incident the other week where a shooter called for a target but nothing appeared so I call 'No target' at precisely the same time as the shooter called for the target again (without dismounting his gun first) ! Luckily he hit it second barrel but turned around and gave me a death stare! If he had missed it I would have happily repeated the target due to 'distraction'.

Another incident a year or so ago I was 'reffin' at Rugby and a LH target hit the Helice fence about 12 inches above the grass and broke on impact at the same time as the shooter shot at it with second barrel. I clearly saw the target break on the fence but the shooter claimed he had hit it second barrel. I consulted with the guy on the abacus and he agreed with me so a 'loss'. I discussed this with John Nightingale afterwards and said in theory the target had been interfered with before it hit the ground so he would have repeated the target, second barrel to count. You live and learn.

Its a bloody minefield. Maybe I need to go and do a referees course?

DT

 

[ips]

all the above confirms that none of us are truly ref material.... I rest my case mi lud

 

[Rosso]

Have to disagree John. If there is a rule which potentially affects my score I want to know about it. If I think the ref is applying a rule incorrectly I will tell him/her. 

how many times have you seen a shooter:-

1/ open a gun after a misfire ( for whatever reason) - honk!

2/ shoot and miss a slow released target - honk!

3/ shoot at a no-bird (irregular flight but not broken) and miss - honk!

Alternatively how many times have you seen a shooter be given a slow-release or irregular target again after they shot at it and missed and then put their hand up and arguing? If that person then wins the comp by 1 target they have done so incorrectly.

If all you do is shoot and are prepared to accept whatever the ref says then fine, but if I have to take responsibility for the button I want to be sure of rules. 

DT

I believe at the World compak (may have venue wrong) a shooter shot at a target, missed it, claimed a correct distraction, got it again, killed it and won shoot by one target.

I'm of the opinion if you pull the trigger you accept the target. If a target comes out late or is not on the correct flight path (poor weather accepted) do not pull the trigger or accept the target. The ref may say target lost (not happened to me yet) - but at least you have a case for not shooting at it.

 

[Les53]

I believe at the World compak (may have venue wrong) a shooter shot at a target, missed it, claimed a correct distraction, got it again, killed it and won shoot by one target.

I'm of the opinion if you pull the trigger you accept the target. If a target comes out late or is not on the correct flight path (poor weather accepted) do not pull the trigger or accept the target. The ref may say target lost (not happened to me yet) - but at least you have a case for not shooting at it.

Many moons ago I used to shoot club/scratch ABT comps. The rule was that if you shot at it you accepted it. If it came out in a hundred bits but still fired, then you had accepted it and whoever was keeping score would need to see one of those bits break to score a kill. Those comps were actually one hell of a lot of fun, yes there were a few arguments at times. I once hit bit of a broken target and the scorer didn't see it, however my fellow squad members did and my kill was entered onto the sheet! 

 

[40UP]

on refusing a target at the home international on Irish soil.

English shooter: that was a slow release

Irish referee: to be sure it wasn't - lost

English shooter looks to assistant referee who happens to be the Scottish captain and seems to be watching the swallows in the sky.

Lesson: no quarter given in foreign lands. You are less likely to lose the target if you attempt it than refuse it.

 

[westley]

on refusing a target at southern counties

Nigel: what was wrong with that?

Me: slow release

Nigel: I'll allow it this time but if it happens again it's lost

Me: huh?

Slow release Eh !  and you get the target again,  you say ?  Bloody Hell, you kept that rule quiet at Hodnet...........Eh !

 

[Les53]

on refusing a target at the home international on Irish soil.

English shooter: that was a slow release

Irish referee: to be sure it wasn't - lost

English shooter looks to assistant referee who happens to be the Scottish captain and seems to be watching the swallows in the sky.

Lesson: no quarter given in foreign lands. You are less likely to lose the target if you attempt it than refuse it.

Well Fred....that gave me a chuckle!

 

[Salopian]

There are no slow releases at Hodnet !

Only shooters not paying attention.

 

[garry2749]

As a paying customer most rounds now 40 quid be nice to have refs and someone to fill up traps.. You would not pay 40 pound for a meal at at restaurant and serve yourself would you. 

 

[andypandy]

As a paying customer most rounds now 40 quid be nice to have refs and someone to fill up traps.. You would not pay 40 pound for a meal at at restaurant and serve yourself would you. 

Ever been to Nando's. :smile:

 

[Les53]

Ever been to Nando's. :smile:

Yes bloody horrible, but we didn't serve ourselves though.?

As a paying customer most rounds now 40 quid be nice to have refs and someone to fill up traps.. You would not pay 40 pound for a meal at at restaurant and serve yourself would you. 

Self service trap?

 

[Mutley]

Which grounds charge £40 a round,  must be in the affluent south....... :angel:

 

[Les53]

Which grounds charge £40 a round,  must be in the affluent south....... :angel:

Ah..... he's a rich boy from over Poole way!

 

[Mutley]

Was thinking about this whole reffing thing this afternoon, all the younger shooters  ( being in age and or new to the disciplineof OT) have it so easy.

Turn up to a shoot, pay your money and shoot, when you ref its on an electronic button, if its a no bird you either wait or press a button, then the abacus person its a yes or no and the card man scores the card, fairly easy.

Lets go back to the 80's and early 90's and before....

No turret traps, all manually loaded, on practice day it was usually the shooters taking turns down the trench between practice for themselves, (3 of you down the trench), I did this many times, even took a target full in the face, as one of the others hadnt placed it on the arm properly and it didnt exit the trench, it just came down to traps 10-15 and got me.

The ref had the horn and had to hae good hearing to listen for buzzers in the control shed.

The abacus man did the abacus.....

Now the scorer of the card, also controlled the sequencer and microphone controls, press and hold the mic live when required, not too soon and not to late....after each 6 sequence the drum lever for trap selection and score and line judge, then if a no bird was called, press a buzzer for an instant reload in the trench, then the ref had to listen for the trench's signal they were ready...

No bugger complained, we all did it  and we all knew the rules as well.......

 

[Andrew.Addison]

Lets go back to the 80's and early 90's and before....

Sounds very much like Loch Ness not all to long ago actually...I remember shooting there when I first started shooting OT, maybe 7-8 years ago, they still had 2 fully hand loaded ranges complete with bunker buzzers and horns for misses. 

 

[Mutley]

It was Loch Ness where I got hit by a clay, in about 89-90....