refing

[ips]

I think Sian means referee rather than actually mark the score down and that is a valid point considering the scenario DT refers to with the GB lad.

moral to the story "don't let a boy do a mans job" (maybe)

 

[PhilR]

I've never liked the idea of other shooters refing in a comp they are shooting in themselves. A ref should be totally impartial and independent. Yes I know how things work,but I've never been happy with it. Yes I know that refs have to be paid for and some shooters don't like the extra cost.

I was on the FITASC UT Technical Commission for 10 years Les.  During that time we sacked two official Referees one in Portugal and the last one at the UT World Championships at Southern Counties in 2009, a British Referee qualified by BICTSF.  He had a female shooter in tears with his attitude, failed to record hits and losses correctly and when we went to relieve him of his duties, he had his head in his bag getting out a sandwich whilst a squad was shooting!  I'd rather trust a fellow shooter that someone who is only there for the money. 

 

[ips]

phil

with respect is two bad uns in ten years not considerably less than similar cock ups by shooters over the same period. We have all witnessed some shoddy reffing by shooters in our time.

the ruling / etiquette of who buttons is as you elude to seldom implemented.

 

[Darkside]

Bird (or target) again...two shots, intentionally miss with the first, attempt kill with second shot.

Arse of a rule!

Surely someone stepped in to make known the unintentional mistake?

...go on then, explain how it's an "arse if a rule" ?!?!

 

[paul b]

You may also have a squad of relitive novices refing a squad of potential winners.

 

[Dog Tyred]

I think Sian means referee rather than actually mark the score down and that is a valid point considering the scenario DT refers to with the GB lad.

moral to the story "don't let a boy do a mans job" (maybe)

Ian

To clarify, the GB vest wearer was the actual shooter, not the ref. Neither seemed to know the rule and nobody else on the line (or scoring) jumped in to correct the error. And I never said it was a lad

DT

 

[PhilR]

You may also have a squad of relitive novices refing a squad of potential winners.

God help them if they don't know the rules either :ahappy:

 

[ips]

sorry Greg I must have read it wrong.

I thought this of all rules was known by all, not exactly one of those open to interpretation or very infrequent occurences, its standard stuff really.

 

[Dog Tyred]

The rationale I find odd for choosing a ref.  Just because you can hit them doesn't  necessarily mean you know how to score them.

Sian I believe the idea is that the more experienced shooter (particularly an international shot) is more likely to be aware of the rules than a recreational shooter. Same goes for classes. It is likely that an A class shooters has been shooting longer than a D class shooter so is more likely to have come across the rules more often (not always the case mind).

DT

 

[Paul120]

Ian

Neither seemed to know the rule.

And Footballers never dive. 

 

[PhilR]

phil

with respect is two bad uns in ten years not considerably less than similar cock ups by shooters over the same period. We have all witnessed some shoddy reffing by shooters in our time.

the ruling / etiquette of who buttons is as you elude to seldom implemented.

There's been many official paid referees we've pulled into the Jury Room at shoots for a full and frank discussion about their performance over the years.  The Southern Counties episode took the biscuit though.   I don't tend to find other shooters who referee get all puffed up by their own self righteousness but are willing to discuss a questioned decision. 

 

[Sian]

Sian I believe the idea is that the more experienced shooter (particularly an international shot) is more likely to be aware of the rules than a recreational shooter. Same goes for classes. It is likely that an A class shooters has been shooting longer than a D class shooter so is more likely to have come across the rules more often (not always the case mind).

DT

Except if you are the type to read the rules back to front from the beginning ?

 

[Wonko the Sane]

A similar rule exists in US skeet for doubles.  The only downside I see for the OT rule is that it is so rarely necessary that the sequence is nearly a guarantee of missing on the 2nd barrel for most shooters.  Formulating rules for such circumstances is always gonna be a difficult task and one that will most certainly never please everyone if it is fair.

But the shooters really should know the rules - - that is an absolute necessity.

JMO of course

Except if you are the type to read the rules back to front from the beginning ?

That would be the standard CYA approach but perhaps falls into the male/reading directions sorta area.

 

[westley]

Who would do 'Effin-Reffin'  Eh ???

Reminds me of that well known Trap Ref.,   Mustaffa Scrulose, now he knew the Rules !

 

[jwpzx9r]

"Read the sodding rules...especially if you are shooting for GB! "

 With due respect Greg the shooter is not there to give his opinion on what should be done it is up to the ref... although they may politely ask for an opinion if they disagree with the ref. With respect to the shooter ... I bet he was at the ham... I would far rather be given the option of hitting with the first tube than trying to miss close enough not to hit and still make the second barrel hit. Darkside that is probably why the other poster thinks the rule a bit daft. Deliberately missing a trap target with the first and hitting with the second is not really that easy unless you practice the shot because if you break it with the first barrel HONK!

 I ref down here because it is expected and to be honest don't mind it because ninety nine percent of the time all you are doing is confirming a miss or giving/ not giving a no bird . I can tell you that nearly every shooter I shoot with would not be able to properly ref a shoot... but like me they do their best... and that is all that can be asked.

I can understand why an international shot may be better versed in the rules than a weekender such as myself but I think these shooters get that vest because they can hit targets not because the have total command of the rules.

 

[Mutley]

I like reffing, not for some sadistic reason, but I enjoy it, its always been part of shooting trap and you learned the rules and played the game, seems fair enough to me....

I enjoy the whole day, not just wham, bang, and jump in car and off to the pub or home, I would rather have an hour at least between lines, (it taks that long to get the mind back into focus these days), so reffing has never phased me, it is part and parcel....

Many a shooter knows when the ref has no idea and will try it on with the rules, which is naughty,   the ISSF rule book is a free download, doesnt take much reading unless you try the pistol and rifle stuff as well, then it gets a bit heavy going....

 

[Darkside]

... I would far rather be given the option of hitting with the first tube than trying to miss close enough not to hit and still make the second barrel hit. Darkside that is probably why the other poster thinks the rule a bit daft. Deliberately missing a trap target with the first and hitting with the second is not really that easy unless you practice the shot because if you break it with the first barrel HONK!

Deliberately missing ANY target with the first barrel and hitting it with the second isn't that easy...at least with OT you are pre mounted, you will know where the bird is going, you don't need to miss 'close'...go to a hold point on line, call and pull the trigger at the same time, the clay will pass your hold point and you can attempt to shoot it. 

I've had to miss first barrel when repeating rabbits that have broken after the first shot missed, and rabbit broke before second shot in FITASC more than a few times!!! The worst one was a very fast rabbit that had to be shot before a limit marker, gun could not move, let alone shouldered from FITASC line until I could see the clay, short window of opportunity, mounted behind the clay and fired the instant the gun touched my shoulder, swung through the clay shooting at the back edge, broke it well. 

If I'd broke it first barrel, no HONK...just target lost!!!

 

[Les53]

I was on the FITASC UT Technical Commission for 10 years Les.  During that time we sacked two official Referees one in Portugal and the last one at the UT World Championships at Southern Counties in 2009, a British Referee qualified by BICTSF.  He had a female shooter in tears with his attitude, failed to record hits and losses correctly and when we went to relieve him of his duties, he had his head in his bag getting out a sandwich whilst a squad was shooting!  I'd rather trust a fellow shooter that someone who is only there for the money. 

Ha, brilliant Phil, the sandwich bit I mean! Love it mate! ?? as they say....you couldn't make it up could you! However I would guess that those shooting were less than amused!

 

[Dog Tyred]

"Read the sodding rules...especially if you are shooting for GB! "

 With due respect Greg the shooter is not there to give his opinion on what should be done it is up to the ref... although they may politely ask for an opinion if they disagree with the ref. With respect to the shooter ... I bet he was at the ham... I would far rather be given the option of hitting with the first tube than trying to miss close enough not to hit and still make the second barrel hit. Darkside that is probably why the other poster thinks the rule a bit daft. Deliberately missing a trap target with the first and hitting with the second is not really that easy unless you practice the shot because if you break it with the first barrel HONK!

 I ref down here because it is expected and to be honest don't mind it because ninety nine percent of the time all you are doing is confirming a miss or giving/ not giving a no bird . I can tell you that nearly every shooter I shoot with would not be able to properly ref a shoot... but like me they do their best... and that is all that can be asked.

I can understand why an international shot may be better versed in the rules than a weekender such as myself but I think these shooters get that vest because they can hit targets not because the have total command of the rules.

Have to disagree John. If there is a rule which potentially affects my score I want to know about it. If I think the ref is applying a rule incorrectly I will tell him/her. 

how many times have you seen a shooter:-

1/ open a gun after a misfire ( for whatever reason) - honk!

2/ shoot and miss a slow released target - honk!

3/ shoot at a no-bird (irregular flight but not broken) and miss - honk!

Alternatively how many times have you seen a shooter be given a slow-release or irregular target again after they shot at it and missed and then put their hand up and arguing? If that person then wins the comp by 1 target they have done so incorrectly.

If all you do is shoot and are prepared to accept whatever the ref says then fine, but if I have to take responsibility for the button I want to be sure of rules. 

DT

 

[ips]

I thought ref could use discretion on a slow pull or iregular target regardless of if it was shot at. ??

same thing if shooter claims a balk due to distraction??