OT

[Salopian]

I am away until June 10th.

 

[ips]

We will sort something out after that then.

 

[Skeetfreak]

OK we all know that the Italians are very heavily into OT, what did they shoot before OT was invented? Also OT is very costly to install, could the Olympic mob not have come up with a cheaper alternative I wonder? If there was a cheaper alternative, maybe more grounds could have it and more people could shoot it. Surely there must be a way of using a single computer controlled trap which could throw the same targets for everyone? I love OT but I do feel that countries, grounds and shooters may possibly be handicaped by the cost of 15 traps and everything that goes with it. OT is viewed by some as an elitist discipline, which is not much good if we are going to get new people into it and very few grounds actually offer it in the first place! Any views? (tin hat now on)

Les53,

Been looking at this topic but not had time to comment. From an outsiders point of view it looks like a structure thing the way the whole BRAND of Olympic Trap is set up.

There are only 6 major shoots in 2013 in the UK - People NEED to shoot all these to qualify to spend vast fortunes of their own money to travel to places like Mexico, UAE, Peru, Germany, Spain to then compete in world cups. Get the timing right and you MIGHT win a place at the Olympics in Rio in 2016 - but only...

1 lady shooter each Olympic cycle

2 male shooters per Olympic cycle

Then to top that off even if you do win a place to the Olympics you might not get to go as some random person who doesn't know you might say that "person x is the better choice to attend". That to me is the real issue it is a massive time and financial commitment i at what is a SERIOUSLY difficult discipline. Then add into the fact that in reality there seems to be an "ageisum" in this country about relying on youth as opposed to experience when it comes to sending athlete's to the Olympics. Then if you are currently over 36/37 there is ZERO point in having any ambition when it comes to the discipline as your not likely to get selected to go.

Why invest 4 - 8 years of your life in something that is nigh on impossible? But youth doesn't have the "expendable income" to follow the international flavour of this expensive discipline - experience does usually so actually if you want participation you need to look to older shooters as they have the time and money to follow this through.

The above then leads to a complete apathy attack by shooters on the discipline and they do not convert upwards from the other trap disciplines. Yes sure you get a few but why so few - see above!

I think it is needed to look at the whole structure of the shoot right down to the name - Olympic Trap!

Why call it that - the very name suggests one thing and one thing only - i am sure we are the only nation that calls it this the rest of the world seems to just call it "Trap" - same for the other Olympic disciplines

Double Trap = stays the same

Olympic Trap = Trap

Olympic Skeet = Skeet

By dropping the Olympic you can lose some of the intimidation and then begin to focus on how we address the appeal of the discipline and give people goals here in the UK to aim for at first. Rather than we only shoot it to access shooting abroad. I would look to change the selection process - if i am right it is three scores from a rolling 4 to get into any team? We have 5 selection shoots it looks like and in amongst them is the UK Championships and English Open as part of the same event?

My question is do the UK Championships and English Open actually carry any prestige? I have never seen them listed in Pull as a entry with a 1/2 page form to fill out - like the English Open Skeet?

The discipline needs to find a way to get an appeal out there to shoot in the UK and give a sense of pride in doing so. I also sense that even though we have a Home International in OT that people (outsiders and people in the discipline) are so focussed on GBR that the England team gets over looked almost. I would look to split the EO and UK away from the selection shoots - given them their pride back!! Then alter the selection process so that it is any (best) 4 from 5 and they must include either the UK or the EO as one of those scores.

If entries are initially low till the discipline gains favour again then look to put the shoot on grounds with only two layouts - even hold county championships (ours doesn't hold a OT county shoot) at places with single layouts on a straight through basis or 50 on / 50 off. So at entry level you can be done in a couple of hours!

It is up to the associations to make use of the grounds that have layouts - eg Doveridge / Sealands (never heard of this ground) and Garlands and see if they would be willing to hold shoots. Whatever happened to the Birmingham Grand Prix - it just ceased? 

Give shooters a reason to shoot it because 5 selection shoots and the British Grand Prix is not much for people to base a full season around. Give them a sense of pride in winning something here in the UK. Then they might make the switch to Internationally competing at "TRAP".

Plus of course make it affordable - there is no reason for it to be so expensive - shooters referee themselves, clays are only 7p per target so ladies shooting 75 targets will cost - £5.25 in clays, no referee costs, OK so you have power, ground staff etc etc but there is no reason why a Selection shoot cannot be the same PRO RATA price as a standard registered event!!!

As for practice - of course travel to a ground is hard work - my nearest is probably garlands (45mins) but to my mind if your serious then i think the set up of the traps needs to bang on a scheme not "that's close enough" so in fact my nearest ground operating targets that i know will be reliable will be - Nuthampstead at 1hr 30mins. 

Is there NO WAY to use say "Ball Trap" as a practice to get used to the extreme angles / speeds?

 

[40UP]

New Double Trap dates added......Looking for a new shooting challenge? Fancy having a go at Olympic Trap or Double Trap but don't know where to start............

We are delighted to confirm two OT Have a Go Days & two Double Trap Have a Go days where you will receive expert coaching in these Olympic disciplines:

National Clay Shooting Centre (NCSC) OT on Wednesday 29th May with England OT Team Manager John Offord

Southern Counties OT on Saturday 8th June with ISSF & CPSA Coach Christian Schofield

Ian Coley Shooting School DT on Wednesday 29th May with Team GB DT Head Coach Ian Coley MBE

Owls Lodge Shooting School DT on Tuesday 28th May with Olympic Gold Medallist Richard Faulds MBE

The session will run from 10am to 4pm (approx) and the cost is £45 per person for the OT Days & £55 per person for the DT Days which includes all instruction, clays & lunch. Please bring your own cartridges as these are not included.

Spaces are limited so please click on the links above to contact the participating gorunds to book your place.

If you have any questions regarding the events please contact Richard at HQ on 01483 485406 or via e-mail on [email protected]

 

[40UP]

A unique opportunity was missed at Southern Counties this month. With no carry forward rankings from last year, the OT team for the world cup in Cyprus was selected from the final of the one selection shoot.

 

[Dog Tyred]

I admire the CPSA's commitment to the try OT and DT days but why are they midweek and why are they all in the south? I realise DT layouts are quite rare but why not have OT days at Beverely, Nutty, SW2000, Sealand, etc.

Would love to take my lad to one but not going to take him out of school to do it. It also means taking a days holiday if I want to do it too and I suspect many will not attend for the same reason.

If they really want to bolster the numbers do them on a Saturday.

Or is it simply the grounds wanting to bolster mid week shooter numbers?? Can't say I disagree with this but they are aiming at a limited customer base.

SKeetfreak - agree with a lot of what you say but I have no aspirations or expactations of getting into the Olympics or GB / England squads for that matter. I like to shoot OT because its so bloody hard and I want to get better at it. I suspect 90% of OT shooters do it for the same reason.

DT

 

[40UP]

It's a serious jaunt to S Counties but see if you and H Dog Tyred can get to the Saturday 8th June, good experience and value.

 

[Les53]

I agree with pretty much all that DT and Skeet said above. I have to say that I'm not convinced about the whole Olympic scenario in general. The Olympic mob insist that we have 15 traps and also that every shooter gets exactly the same targets, so as to make it fair. Well OK that's fine, but are they then implying that any other discipline is unfair?  As we all know, there are NO easy targets in OT, they are all hard in their own way, so why does it matter who gets what target? Anyone who is that good will be able to hit any of the targets that can be thrown, I cannot see that the order of or amount of any particular target is relevant.  Then we have the single barrel issue at a final, why? Why can't they just go for a single barrel shoot off in the event of a tie in the main competition? It seems that they just seem to want to complicate things when there is no need to. Let's face it, has shooting had any real benefit from the meddling that has been done over the past 30 years? Well I'm sorry, but as an old timer I would have to say no, not as far as I can see. They should be promoting disciplines that people really want to shoot and that grounds can afford to install and make a decent profit from, they should not be concocting disciplines which are viewed as un shootable or far too difficult by some people, hence the lack of support for such disciplines in some countries, including the UK.

 

[Dog Tyred]

It's a serious jaunt to S Counties but see if you and H Dog Tyred can get to the Saturday 8th June, good experience and value.

Ooops......missed the Saturday at SC. As you say though its a aweful long way!! 177 miles to be precise.

Might try and do this one with H. I'll let you know.

DT

 

[Skeetfreak]

SKeetfreak - agree with a lot of what you say but I have no aspirations or expactations of getting into the Olympics or GB / England squads for that matter. I like to shoot to shoot OT because its a bloody hard and I want to get better at it. I suspect 90% of OT shooters do it for the same reason.

DT

DT,

Exactly the answer i expected from the kind of % figure you quote - for exactly the reasons i talked about above. 

Why?

Simply put unless you have aspirations for GBR / Eng / Olympics then OT offers nothing but  

I like to shoot to shoot OT because its a bloody hard and I want to get better at it.

What i am saying should be the case is that there is something on offer for people in your situation. Looking at the CPSA fixtures for the next week there is only one registered OT on over the bank holiday weekend and that is a Selection shoot @ Bisley so 125 targets at great expense over two days incorporating selection for ENG / CSF / GBR and the UK Championships!!

Persuading shooter to leave ANY discipline which they "enjoy and want to get better at" to swap over and apply the same theory to OT is going to be nigh on difficult given it only offers a 6 shoot per season.

6 x 125 targets = 750 total targets for the competition season with very little opportunity to shoot standard registered events. 

This is Les53's original point i believe - that "what else is there?" as it its not enough to sustain a shooting season specializing in OT and keep improving.

looking further forward in the fixtures..

01/06/2013 - Garlands 50 OTR Reg. (Leics & Rut CC)

02/06/2013 - Brook Bank 100 OTR Reg (Som, Dev & Wilts CC's)

02/06/2013 - Nutty 100 OTR Reg

09/06/2013 - Bisley 100 OTR Reg (Bucks, Gln, Hants, Berks, Oxon, Sur & Sus CC's)

16/06/2013 - Nutty 100 OTR Reg

22/23 06 / 2013 - Nutty - GBR/ENG/CSF Sel Shoot - 125 targets over two days

But that is it for competition in the UK over the next month. As i stated in a thread the other day my discipline gave me the option to shoot 800 registered targets in 9 days. 

 

[Les53]

OT is and has always been, a minority sport, to be blunt I cannot see that ever changing in this country. Even in the USA, shooters still seem to prefer their traditional trap shooting, it almost seems as though the only place on the face of the planet where OT is REALLY popular is in Italy for some reason. So why is that, or is there another place where top OT shooters are treated as gods? Have a go days are OK so as to attempt to encourage new blood into OT, however there is little point in such things if one does not have an OT layout within easy reach of where one lives! New shooters are unlikely to get straight into OT, it's way too difficult, therefore new OT shooters will most likely come from the ranks of other disciplines. So providing they think that OT is worth traveling for, or they have a local layout and that they think it is shootable, they may decide to take it up, so looking at it that way I do not believe that we are likely to see any kind of surge in OT shooters anytime soon.

 

[Dog Tyred]

Skeetfreak

I agree entirely with most of what you are saying but don't agree with the OT fixtures bit. Not sure what you are referring to with the 6 x 125 shoots a year as you can shoot 100 OT comp somewhere in the country on most weekends (if not every other weekend) if you are prepared to travel. Selection shoots are only really for those with aspirations of GB or England team selection and lets be honest the vast majority of those that do shoot the selection shoots have no chance of that but they do it anyway because they enjoy it.

I count nine OT competitions in June including the selection shoot at Nutty and that's not including any at South Wales 2000 which for some reason are not showing any fixtures at all for the rest of the year?? Interestingly I also count nine OSK comps in the same period (inc a 200 target selection) so OT comps are not that rare?

It is slim pickings I grant you and for me to shoot comps means an early start as they are so far away and two days for 125 target selection shoot is just plain silly. It's also a very pricey past time as I'm paying for two but hey, that's my choice.

I will deffo shoot the 50 birder at Garlands next week as I've been trying to encourage them to put on more comps. Can't see them putting in another OT layout though due to "lack of demand" (quote from Jamie Garland) so they will not be putting on 100 bird comps anytime soon.

As I have said I would love to shoot OT all the time but that's not possible to so I mostly shoot ABT and UT although comps for the latter are even rarer than OT with only five registered comps in June (including one 200 target 2 day selection shoot). Layout are also quite rare but not as rare as OT I grant you.

As Les says, OT has always been a minority sport, possibly because most don't like it because its too hard or just because there are not enough facilities. I shoot it occassionally and am crap but I would rather hit 75 OT than 97 DTL any day of the week. Eitherway I don't see the situation (or my scores) improving in the near future.

'Ball trap' for me on Sunday at Rugby. Who's coming?

DT

 

[ips]

D T

agree entirely Partictlarily re the 125 selection. I know some like it but i firmly believe more would travel to shoot it if it was 200 as most of us are used to and expect 100 per day. They tried it last year and it failed to improve numbers but IMO it was because the H I was in Ireland so not many could be arsed anyway.

 

[Dog Tyred]

D T

agree entirely Partictlarily re the 125 selection. I know some like it but i firmly believe more would travel to shoot it if it was 200 as most of us are used to and expect 100 per day. They tried it last year and it failed to improve numbers but IMO it was because the H I was in Ireland so not many could be arsed anyway.

I think even more would travel if it were 125 shot in one day!!

DT

 

[Les53]

I think even more would travel if it were 125 shot in one day!!

DT

I think travel is quite an issue these days, what with the cost of fuel. Also if the shoot is held over two days then one has to add the cost of accomodation and food as well, which of course adds further to the bill. Then we add the cost of shells and the entry fee,  we are suddenly looking at a very costly weekend away!

 

[Hotshot100]

I think travel is quite an issue these days, what with the cost of fuel. Also if the shoot is held over two days then one has to add the cost of accomodation and food as well, which of course adds further to the bill. Then we add the cost of shells and the entry fee,  we are suddenly looking at a very costly weekend away!

I know that Gordon Lee turned down a place on the U.T. G.B. squad this year because he estimated that it would cost him at least £3.5 k to do it this year with travel, accommodation ,entry fees and cartridges (mind you he does use R.C. red nicks.)

And you are right ,these 2 day shoots only attract the really serious contenders due to the cost.

 

[Les53]

I know that Gordon Lee turned down a place on the U.T. G.B. squad this year because he estimated that it would cost him at least £3.5 k to do it this year with travel, accommodation ,entry fees and cartridges (mind you he does use R.C. red nicks.)

And you are right ,these 2 day shoots only attract the really serious contenders due to the cost.

If it carries on as it is, we will end up with sponsored pro shooters who can and will be able to do anything and go anywhere, the rest of us will just be consigned to taking what we can get and can afford. At least with DTL, it can be shot just about anywhere as most areas have a DTL layout or two which is not too far to travel to and from. In fact it is not too difficult to set up a mobile DTL layout and I have heard of some small clubs that have done just that. OK there may well be variations on targets, (not regulation), but if it's cheap, friendly and enjoyable, well why not? Unless one is heavily sponsored, and most shooters are not, then cost will most certainly be an issue. Maybe we should go back to shooting small time trap, in other words DTL, single rise, single barrel, double rise etc. The cost of setting such things up is nowhere near the costs invloved in OT, and in many cases a "proper" shooting ground is not even required. Let's be honest about it too, DTL is NOT the easy game that a lot people seem to think it is.

 

[Dog Tyred]

Not easy..........but by eck its boring!!

In my opinion of course.

err........I'll get my coat!

DT

 

[Les53]

Noy easy..........but by eck its boring!!

In my opinion of course.

err........I'll get my coat!

DT

Oh I never found it boring, I just found that it drove me bloody mad, one single second tube and you can be done for! A total mind game!!!!!!

 

[sidney]

FAO DT

Mike at sw2000 has allegedly said he will not be holding any more registered OT comps. He will keep one OT layout for practice, the others will have traps removed and be used for other disciplines. How true this is I don't know. There are also rumours that 1 or 2 layouts may be removed to make way for wind turbines. Hope it is only rumours. Would be another big loss to the sport. Excellent facility.