Cheats and cheating

[jwpzx9r]

Scratch is the basis that all major championships are won! You may win your class or category but you have to win scratch to be the champion.

 

[Sian]

Scratch is the basis that all major championships are won! You may win your class or category but you have to win scratch to be the champion.

That is accepted without complaint but most of us will never be champion for a variety of reasons but in my disciplines ESP, Fitasc, Sportrap and Compak coming first in your class at a championship is celebrated by most as an achievement and I like that.

Apologies all for continuing to take this off course - going shooting now.

 

[jwpzx9r]

Sian not looking for a fight but when you have a situation where you have not comfort of a class to fall back on because of what I have already stated the first thing I want to know is how I did scratch and my category second. Like last weekend I shot a 94% comp score... I knew I had not won the vet category but I did want to know how I has done scratch.

 

[ips]

I only ever concern myself with were I am on the leaderboard. But That's just me.

ps

I cant remember the last time I won anything as a class win. The last three wins have been at scratch comps .

 

[Sian]

Sian not looking for a fight but when you have a situation where you have not comfort of a class to fall back on because of what I have already stated the first thing I want to know is how I did scratch and my category second. Like last weekend I shot a 94% comp score... I knew I had not won the vet category but I did want to know how I has done scratch.

See that is where we can say we are alike and I am not fighting by the way, I am merely expressing my opinion.  Regardless of whether I win my class or category, I too still like to see where I came overall and I like it very much when I beat B, A and AA ? Which I have done. 

 

[Nimbusgb]

I'm well aware of how the French operate in all manner of pursuits, the world is full of odd people, that's what makes it fun. 

 

[Wonko the Sane]

I have contended for years that all class systems are crap.  If classes are desired to spread the tin around then every shoot is scratch and the classes set on the basis of a Lewis system at that shoot and are never carried over to another.  I suppose Ladies and Vets are arguable but mostly for reasons of filling the lists since I've seen way too many ladies and vets that just flat kick ass.

JMO of course

 

[Nimbusgb]

HaHa I don't think you have the concept. If you are a brand knew to shooting shooter in France and are 55 or over you shoot in the vet category... which is effectively scratch as there is no sub category... tough luck... if you don't want to compete don't ! I don't have a problem with that to be honest as I think competitions should be scratch anyway... I mean why enter a competition to see if you compare favourably with another crap shooter in your category? Fair enough have categories to be able to say in category blah you were placed position X but don't hand prizes out for it ... real competition is scratch... the winning something because you shot poorly but less poorly than another shooter in a category is just sad . If you want to compete then do so but don't compete on the level that you will only do so if you are cosseted into a place where you can win something by shooting in a category.

Some on here will agree with that but consider this, if that's your method then why should I enter a comp knowing that I will have no chance of winning? No entry, no money for the organisers or for the prize pot. Classes increase the overall number of participants and make it more profitable, or at least viable for the ground owners.

 

[Wonko the Sane]

Some on here will agree with that but consider this, if that's your method then why should I enter a comp knowing that I will have no chance of winning? No entry, no money for the organisers or for the prize pot. Classes increase the overall number of participants and make it more profitable, or at least viable for the ground owners.

A reasonable comment and likely more truth than not - BUT - the underlying presumption is that the classes are somehow legitimate and actually represent skill levels.  Which they often do not.  As I mentioned before, if classes are desired then Lewis categories established on the particular shoot's results are the only justifiable course PARTICULARLY for sporting since there is no standard course of fire and averages are meaningless.

again, JMO

 

[jwpzx9r]

Some on here will agree with that but consider this, if that's your method then why should I enter a comp knowing that I will have no chance of winning? No entry, no money for the organisers or for the prize pot. Classes increase the overall number of participants and make it more profitable, or at least viable for the ground owners.

Let me make one thing quite clear I shoot in competitions not because I am a good shooter BUT because I like shooting and I have a competitive outlook.. I only want to do my best an gauge myself against other shooters prizes are not the norm for me and if I get one I have earned it because I shoot from scratch. I would also like to state that there is not such thing as targets only down here... you want to be a competitive shooter you pay your entry fee and get on with it. Shooting in competitions is not cheap down here a 100 target UT competition costs 40€ or 45€ the targets would be 20€. However there are no ground owners and the prize fund is distributed incredibly fairly ( depending how you view fair  ) for example first prize is 90€ the second prize is 85€  and reduces by 5€ per place down to 15th place so we don't need to worry about pot hunters :lol: .

In short I shoot competitions because I enjoy them and shooting practice means actually F all in real terms competitive shooting is the only way of gauging your status and I am willing to pay to do it. A 25 in practice feels nice but means nothing.. do the same thing in a comp and you feel great, people remember it and also see the score in the published results. Just my take

 

[ips]

john

the way you describe how comps are in France is Imo exactly how it should be. ?

 

[jwpzx9r]

john

the way you describe how comps are in France is Imo exactly how it should be. ?

Ian this has nothing whatsoever to do with the OP but here is the exact way prizes are distributed in an FFBT competition held in France I hope the link works. It would appear in France winning money is not totally the aim of competition... you only get back twice the entry fee for first place. Of course the more shooters the greater the prize but the difference between a win and second is kept small and all the way down.

View attachment GRILLE_DE_PRIX_2014_.pdf

 

[westley]

I only ever concern myself with were I am on the leaderboard. But That's just me.

ps

I cant remember the last time I won anything as a class win. The last three wins have been at scratch comps .

Just a couple of points really....................

1) What is a leaderboard ??

2) De-Flea the dog and drop the scratch comps ??

 

[Chris Bubb]

If you ask shooters if they enter to win money, I bet over 90% would say they enter just for the fun of it, so why do you think doing away with classes would decrease the entries. Lets do away with classes start off scratch, and reward people who actually win, not people who shoot a mediocre score and leave people who have achieved far more go unrewarded.. This would bring true competition to our sport and reward those who have truly excelled.

 

[ips]

If you ask shooters if they enter to win money, I bet over 90% would say they enter just for the fun of it, so why do you think doing away with classes would decrease the entries. Lets do away with classes start off scratch, and reward people who actually win, not people who shoot a mediocre score and leave people who have achieved far more go unrewarded.. This would bring true competition to our sport and reward those who have truly excelled.

exactly, payment would also be made further down the board according to entries so you could still get a draw if you put in a reasonable score. If that floats yet boat.

 

[Chris Bubb]

exactly, payment would also be made further down the board according to entries so you could still get a draw if you put in a reasonable score. If that floats yet boat.

True, the top 15 or 20 could get a payout according to entry.

 

[ips]

exactly, what's not to like ?

 

[Sian]

See that is where we can say we are alike and I am not fighting by the way, I am merely expressing my opinion.  Regardless of whether I win my class or category, I too still like to see where I came overall and I like it very much when I beat B, A and AA ? Which I have done. 

Fixtures for Southdown Gun Club Ltd



Event No. 86203 - 29/08/2016 - Issue 51


this is a lovely example of what I am talking about when I say looking to see where I am in the list is important.  Sorry just blowing my own horn really

 

[Nimbusgb]

If you ask shooters if they enter to win money, I bet over 90% would say they enter just for the fun of it, so why do you think doing away with classes would decrease the entries. Lets do away with classes start off scratch, and reward people who actually win, not people who shoot a mediocre score and leave people who have achieved far more go unrewarded.. This would bring true competition to our sport and reward those who have truly excelled.

Empirical evidence...... Our club runs a regular Saturday competition shoot every 2 weeks. You can enter scratch cash class ( with a prize fund subsidy ) or classified trophy class. I'll give you one guess as to the make up of the entries on any day. 20 to 1 trophy vs cash is my rough estimate. On the same day the compact layout runs a scratch cash entry class, the C class club shooters aren't even tempted to walk down and watch let alone enter. They know they are outclassed so simply stay away, sad really because it's a cracking discipline.

Do away with classes .... fine ...... but only if you do away with the £5 subsidy of the cream that always get the top prizes.

I am reliably informed that there are syndicates that will tour the grounds on a comp day, pool their winnings and split the days proceeds and some top shooters pitching up just before closing and deciding whether to shoot or not depending on the days high gun etc.

Why should I subsidise the same couple of shooters just because I am shooting in a registered comp? For the somewhat dubious pleasure of comparing myself to them? Thanks but my 3 years of banging away after starting very much the wrong side of 50 will never compare to the 30, 40 or 50 years experience and youthful start some people have. 

Why do you feel that you have to be rewarded with my money just because you can shoot a higher score? i have news for you, no classes and I'm off to shoot with a bunch of mates, we can have a shed load of fun and it gets very competitive and money is not involved at all, well the winner usually ends up buying the round of coffees and teas afterwards.
 

 

[Chris Bubb]

If you read through a lot of posts on here the general consensus is that the class system doesn't work and is not a true reflection of peoples shooting ability, that being the case why would anybody feel any pride or achievement in winning in a system that is flawed, or more importantly "winning"  money.