Alternative ranking system

[Nimbusgb]

There seems to be a lot of discussion about classifications etc on at least two and probably more threads. It certainly seems to be a hot topic from time-to-time.

Given that there will always need to be some sort of classification system in place, rather than whinge about it why not chip in your ideas for 'fixing' it or making it more acceptable?

Arguments for or against a classification system aside, if a better way can be found it would be a simple matter to get it voted in at an AGM of the CPSA after all we are the members!

Some ideas - 

Are 5 classes enough or too many? Why have the A's split themselves into A, AA and AAA if they are not worried about who wins what? Perhaps just Open, A, B and C should suffice!

I am shooting in the clubman league at the moment and there are clearly some blokes who although not currently classified through the CPSA have been shooting for years and the idea that they are 'C' or at most 'B' ranked is laughable. Either that or they simply don't compete reqularly and have under par classifications. How do you address this? Currently done by scoring a few ( unknown - yeah right ) stands in the layout and using those to form a handicap. Is there a better way? Does there need to be? Should unclassified shots participate BO or Open until they have enough data to build a base upon?

The current system is far from agile, 6 months between rankings in this day and age is not ideal..... or is it? how do we address it. IT can keep up with this, why can't the ranking system?

Win 3 shoots move up a class?

If you can only move one classification at a time there's a good chance an A skilled shooter can spend a year 'carpetbagging' the lower classes. Or can they? 

Just as a matter of interest .... 

The CPSA site lists 5068 shots in English sporting of which 5000 appear to be active ( ie have scores recorded in a registered comp ) 

194 AAA's

410 AA

1260 A

1324 B

and 1880 of us in C

 

[Will Hewland]

long thread about this about 6 weeks ago?

 

[ehb102]

Just as a matter of interest .... 

The CPSA site lists 5068 shots in English sporting of which 5000 appear to be active ( ie have scores recorded in a registered comp ) 

194 AAA's

410 AA

1260 A

1324 B

and 1880 of us in C

Where did you find this? Did you extract the data or did you find it somewhere?

 

[Nimbusgb]

Where did you find this? Did you extract the data or did you find it somewhere?

Extracted it by searching 'all sporting' and 'any' county. Then filtered on aaa, aa, a etc.

 

[Nimbusgb]

long thread about this about 6 weeks ago?

Mind posting a link to it?

 

[rgv_stu]

Just as a matter of interest .... 

The CPSA site lists 5068 shots in English sporting of which 5000 appear to be active ( ie have scores recorded in a registered comp ) 

194 AAA's

410 AA

1260 A

1324 B

and 1880 of us in C

not sure this has any relevance, due to the fact the classifications are % based. top 5% AAA next 10% AA, next 20% A, etc.

if people generally scored higher all that would happen is the cut offs in each class would be higher, still the same number would be AAA , AA etc

 

[bigjedd]

In Australia we get reclassed after every 10 rounds of 25 (250 targets)

our handicap is then decided by the number of targets shot for the ten rounds

0-119=C9

120-129=C8

130-139=C7

140-149=B6

150-159=B5

160-169=B4

170-182=A3

183-194=A2

195-224=AA1

225-250=AA0

This dose not stop sandbaggers but its hard to imagine anyone shooting poorly for ten consecutive rounds to keep themselves in a lower class..

We don't often shoot handicap events so it dosen,t really pay to sandbag for handicap only

When a new shooter starts he is C9 grade but after the first comp, lets say 3 rounds of 25 their score is added up then divided by the number of rounds shot and then multiplied by 10 to get their handicap. At the next shoot this is the class he shoots in until he is reclassed after each comp. Once they have shot ten rounds the average for the 10 rounds gives the overall grading which they will shoot for the next 10 rounds where they are re graded.

The advantage of this system is a shooter who may have done a lot of shooting prior to clay comp will start in a lower class but their ability will

soon see them regraded to their true grade.  

 At our National Comp, that are 150 targets over 2 days 75 per day,  the shooters have been re graded after the first days shoot based on how they shot for the day. This tends to show up any shooters who may have sandbagged to win a class. 

 

[Guerini Guy]

I think that the system used by NSSA Skeet is probably the fairest you are likely to get.

Every registered score is recorded, whether comp or birds only, and your next shoot classification is based on the average of the previous 5 x scores.

This allows the classification to more constantly reflect your current ability, and shooters can only move DOWN one class in any 12 month period. It also shows up any sandbaggers a lot more easily. By far not a perfect system but I do believe it is better than the CPSA system.

Classes also go from AA down to E class. This is a huge incentive for those of poor ability and newcomers to feel "genuinely engaged" in competition, and from which hopefully they will try to improve and lose their "E" status which can be seen as kind of equivalent to an "L" plate in driving. Nothing to be derided but most shooters would be glad to lose their "E" status to show they are improving.

It may sound a bit messy compared to CPSA, but believe me the shooters and, just as importantly the governing body, appear to cope with it extremely well.

Upon joining NSSA, shooters are even supplied with a score chart to record their own scores so that they can self-declare classification for the next shoot (adding 5 numbers together and dividing by 5 ain't rocket science) although the details are updated on the NSSA website extremely quickly and normally available to the shoot organisers.    

In line with the thread topic, maybe this is an answer or maybe you may think it is a worse system. Just putting it out there for discussion !                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   

 

[Nimbusgb]

I like the idea of 'continuous integration' over shorter periods, quite possible in todays IT age. Not sure if a reclassification within the bounds of a single competition is ideal but it does try to address a perceived problem.

Of course the perfect handicap system would mean that everyone comes first!

 

[ips]

I don't understand the need for all these classes three is enough international, national and club. That should do it and once your in either of the top two you don't go down. Job done.

 

[Hamster]

Way too much worrying over the mythical beast that is the UnspottableSandbagger.

 

[PhilR]

The CPSA Shoot 08 programme can classify on the day, so everybody starts on a level playing field without a class.  For disciplines that are shot in rounds of 25, and a 100 target event the computer prog randomly picks two rounds to classify on, for 150 targets it can be three and 200 targets it's generally four from the eight shot.  The competitors won't know which class they're in until the button is pressed to actually do the calculation and there's no reason why that can't done once the last shot is fired . It's likely it'll do something similar for sporting events too.  

If you have a blinder there's a chance you'll end up in a high class and if it's one to forget then a lower class.  However, it will be the same for everyone else and prizes will be paid out on the classes derived on the day.  

 

[Nimbusgb]

Way too much worrying over the mythical beast that is the UnspottableSandbagger.

Owls lodge today, I left the grounds at about 12:30 after having a poor morning ( i'd say I was encouraging clays to breed not just letting them get away! ) The first 4 squads or so scores were up on the board. AA's, A, B, C classes about even number of entries.

Highest score on the whiteboard? An 86................ in C class! Several shots clear of the top in any other class! Mythical unspottable sandbagger?

 

[Hamster]

Owls lodge today, I left the grounds at about 12:30 after having a poor morning ( i'd say I was encouraging clays to breed not just letting them get away! ) The first 4 squads or so scores were up on the board. AA's, A, B, C classes about even number of entries.

Highest score on the whiteboard? An 86................ in C class! Several shots clear of the top in any other class! Mythical unspottable sandbagger?

What were the end scores ? It isn't unusual to see seemingly high scores in the lower classes, people have different circumstances and learning curves, it could have a very logical reason behind it. Take note of the name and watch his scores over the next year, if he bangs in 80-90+ in from now on then he's a natural with the capacity to learn and more importantly has the ability of application; if as I suspect he is found to be rather erratic then worry not because his journey, like most of us will be one of slow organic improvement.

Remember that winning scores in all classes tend to be much higher than cut-offs ! The real clue though, like everything else is revealed when you follow the money, that's right, there's nowt there to sandbag for if there was a car or ten grand for your mischief I could understand but a bleeding oner, come on.

 

[Will Hewland]

The shoot was medium to firm. I think 93 was leading when I left.

 

[Richard59]

Owls lodge today, I left the grounds at about 12:30 after having a poor morning ( i'd say I was encouraging clays to breed not just letting them get away! ) The first 4 squads or so scores were up on the board. AA's, A, B, C classes about even number of entries.

Highest score on the whiteboard? An 86................ in C class! Several shots clear of the top in any other class! Mythical unspottable sandbagger?

Score of 82 won C Class at OLSS, such a score is not unusual.

 

[Nimbusgb]

Score of 82 won C Class at OLSS, such a score is not unusual.

Yup and therein lies the challenge!

A month ago the winners scores took a step 10% improvement. ( although 7 months ago he was shooting at a B level anyway )  ( New gun / Mental approach / coaching? ) His CPSA Number is near 7000 so has been shooting for some time.

Issue 45 classifications he was a B, now he's a C, he has put in 5 consecutive A or above scores and the last two have been AA scores. ( Cutoff for issue 45 was 82 )

Now I likes a little competition and please understand that I am NOT pointing a finger at the OLSS winner, just using his scores as an illustration, but this is a bit like bringing a Trabant to a drag race or as the saying goes, a knife to a gunfight!

If you are going to run classifications/handicaps then the winner of a class need to feel that on the day his performance was just a bit better than usual, not his current average shoot.

 

[Darkside]

Yup and therein lies the challenge!

A month ago the winners scores took a step 10% improvement. ( although 7 months ago he was shooting at a B level anyway ) ( New gun / Mental approach / coaching? ) His CPSA Number is near 7000 so has been shooting for some time.

Issue 45 classifications he was a B, now he's a C, he has put in 5 consecutive A or above scores and the last two have been AA scores. ( Cutoff for issue 45 was 82 )

Now I likes a little competition and please understand that I am NOT pointing a finger at the OLSS winner, just using his scores as an illustration, but this is a bit like bringing a Trabant to a drag race or as the saying goes, a knife to a gunfight!

If you are going to run classifications/handicaps then the winner of a class need to feel that on the day his performance was just a bit better than usual, not his current average shoot.

Get a grip of yourself!!! OLSS sounds like it puts on the kind of targets that allow someone on form to build a big score, that is what happens in competition...someone on form usually wins by building a big score, it takes talent, experiance and hard work to get better, without those three things your not likely to win anything!!! Two of my last three shoots, in my first year shooting, when I was in c class were 81 82, now two years on I'm A class, my average is still not 82, but it's heading that way...if/when my concistincy improves enough to let me average 82+ then bye bye A class too...what's wrong with that?!?!

 

[Nimbusgb]

Calm down James! Get a grip! This is a discussion. They are allowed!

I give you the C class winners scores over the past few months

82

83

75

75

63

66

65

66

45

60

74

60

79

56

67

70

And a mate of mine 'P' who shot OLSS on Saturday and is classed 'A'

69

56

65

62

73

72

64

68

70

56

59

64

76

59

50

59

The last 2 months of the C class shooters scores have been above the A class shooters scores. Go figure as they say.