Steel, Do You Or Don't You?

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[JonSkeet2]

I really like steel for skeet, the killing powervs recoil of the 24g is excellent in balance, the 28's are a bit more thumpy recoil wise but the 24's soot ball clays if you put the pattern in the right place.

Anywhere I can't use steel I use Hull Pro Ones in a 28g 9 but they are softer than the 24g steel despite being faster. Cheap cartridges use cheap powders which do really kick, the worst I have ever tried have been Nobel Sport.

1300FPS or 1500FPS the speed is measured at the muzzles and in real terms they decelerate very quickly.. we miss by feet and inches, the cartridge speed makes a fraction of an inch difference. IMO it all marketing.

Jon.

 

[Hamster]

I had always doubted the assertion that slow shells somehow throw better patterns, whatever that mean :???: . The manufacturers always load their flagship shells with plenty of speed to allow them to be used at the top level. On top of this in all the reports of shell test in magazines the patterns thrown by fast shells have been no different to slow ones, certainly never ever blown or inferior in any way, yet this myth persists that slow shells throw superior patterns but nobody is prepared to tell us what this superiority consists of? :lol:

A chap called Dr. Andrew has apparently done a significant amount of pattern testing in this country but for reasons unknown only seems interested in posting in US forums, he seems keen to tell it as he sees it and on 2 dimensional pattern testing he's stated that slow did NOT equal tighter or better patterns, very slightly the reverse in fact. I was not surprised because that's what my clay shooting experiences have shown me.

 

[40UP]

Lancashire wake, Nicola, always a good time. Leigh bowling club - 3 drinks for a fiver, cream cakes the size of plates. Hotpot and red cabbage, what they call lobby in Cheshire. Left when the sun went down.

 

[40UP]

Hamster, could I point out that all DTL branded cartridges are lower velocity for improved pattern and that GD doesn't use Black Gold except in extreme circumstances - he's always preferred a better pattern.

 

[** Pending Removal **]

40UP...........I cannot do smilies on my iPhone but suffice to sat I am laughing out loud

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[GlenPresley]

Hamster, could I point out that all DTL branded cartridges are lower velocity for improved pattern and that GD doesn't use Black Gold except in extreme circumstances - he's always preferred a better pattern.

So that would explain why the Hull Pro One DTL's seem to produce better kills through my Gun than the normal Hull pro Ones???

However if you can notice the difference in speed between those than you must be 'God'

 

[40UP]

Yes, Glen, I admit to using Hull DTL for UT, then I find myself using them for sporting forays as well in quarter choke, but for extreme targets and second barrels I resort to 6.5shot [see reasoning above].

For a given quality of shot the higher the take off speed the more compression damage to the shot [less in 21gm]. NB - steel shot doesn't distort and patterns with the best of them.

But as I've said before, all you need in a cartridge is confidence. I notice on the forum that we have quite a number of computer geeks and for some people that confidence is technical and for others it's practical and as you say: if it breaks the clays , then it works.

I'll take your guidance on the winchester Acier, if I ever wanted to shoot steel.

 

[GlenPresley]

Well I sorted my order out for the Winchester Aciers 2000 of the beauties. Was amazed out how disinterested most of the cartridge companies are with your business and enquiries some don't even bother responding, they should remember all though we are a small audience that small audience talks a lot!!!. I know 2000 is not very much, seems like noboday really controls the market that much everybody seems to be shooting different brands,

In the end 350€ for 2000 28gram Steel 7's which I have shot and have confidence with seems to be a reasonable deal to me.

Glen.

 

[40UP]

Glen, I know you've already tested the Acier - could you cut one open and count. I know it's tedious but if they're the same number as lead, they're FE7 but if there's 20% more they're genuine 7s.

I'll just check the number of leds - it was 340 when I was 10yr old. Yep, still is.

 

[40UP]

North/south divide question for Nicola - do you have solar powered garden lights round burial plots down there? It must look like something from ET at night.

 

[GlenPresley]

Just a few Steel!! ;-)

 

[Les Graham]

Just a few Steel!! ;-)

Any jobs up for grabs in Germany?? I aint seen that many cartridges since the last time I went to my dealer.

 

[Hamster]

Hamster, could I point out that all DTL branded cartridges are lower velocity for improved pattern and that GD doesn't use Black Gold except in extreme circumstances - he's always preferred a better pattern.

Are you suggesting the Black Golds throw inferior patterns? In all the reviews I've ever seen they have been mentioned as having excellent patterns, if a little thumpy, also borne out by many friends who happen to use them. I bought a thou when they first came out but just couldn't live with the thump, the breaks were more than OK though . George Digweed uses the White Golds if I'm not mistaken? Hardly known as slow?

I have never said mid or slow speed shells don't throw super patterns, the DTL specific shells are a good case in point, you don't need spectacularly good shells to break easy targets such as DTL seeing as most use a fair bit of choke too, really I just don't get your argument! All I have ever said its that there is no proof of the oft said slow throws better thing.

 

[Hamster]

For a given quality of shot the higher the take off speed the more compression damage to the shot [less in 21gm]. NB - steel shot doesn't distort and patterns with the best of them.

This is what is commonly used as a reason as to why fast shells don't throw patterns as good as anything else out there and is quite simply irrelevant when you take into account that manufacturers aren't stupid. They know compressed, misshaped pellets harm patterns so they up the ante and load harder antimony coupled to well balanced wads, powders and primers etc, to get over this possibility.

Top shooters would all be using club rounds if they thought for a minute that 150 less fps would magically transform their patterns, instead they do the opposite, sure you'll find one or three who can live with run of the mill shells but most won't risk it, they prefer high end spec.

The simple reality is that if you take a very fast top comp shell and pattern it next to a regular DTL round, there won't be a roll up paper's worth in it in 2 dimensional terms, the faster shell just happen to break distant targets better that's all.

 

[40UP]

Hi Hamster, as you said people shoot as much recoil as they can tolerate, some even World Cups. Top shots are assisted with their cartridge costs and may have to use the gun and cartridge best for their sponsor. We've discussed before that any cartridge, any choke, any shot size, any load works up to 30yd [40yd face on] then a little choke comes in, then bigger shot size and finally maximum load. Higher velocity is shed the fastest so it's of negligible advantage at 50yd. Perhaps best cartridges are used for their consistancy and hardness of shot but only relevant beyond 50yd and hardly necessary to beat your self up. Why not use a soft 24gm until you need more.

The little book says difference at 40yd for fast/slow is the width of a clay.

 

[Hamster]

I happen to very much agree on the recoil front, very susceptible to gun headaches as it happens so have to be careful in what gun/ammo combo I use. I used the 21 grammers when they first came out but as much as the recoil truly is negligible, so were the kills I found :lol: :.: , well the overall scores anyway.

I have also used 24 gram and liked them, good kills and very sensible recoil but unfortunately near impossible to get regular supplies in either preferred shot size or even make! In an ideal world I would probably use a 50/50 mix of 24/28.

 

[40UP]

If you're recommending best cartridges Hamster, I'm a convert to Red Shot for Olympic Trap and I don't think they come any better than that.

As we were talking Sporting, I use 50/50 24gm cheap and 28gm best.

Going offline now

 

[GlenPresley]

Any jobs up for grabs in Germany?? I aint seen that many cartridges since the last time I went to my dealer.

Looking for an Inventory Control Analyst at the moment but only internal applications at the moment!

 

[GlenPresley]

Glen, I know you've already tested the Acier - could you cut one open and count. I know it's tedious but if they're the same number as lead, they're FE7 but if there's 20% more they're genuine 7s.

I'll just check the number of leds - it was 340 when I was 10yr old. Yep, still is.

I will cut one open when I get my hands on em! Will let you know the result!