Lost my way with Driven birds...

[woody]

Why?  How? I don't get it. When I started clay shooting 4 or 5 years ago driven was the one thing I could do easy-peasy. It seems to be crossers and loopers that are the difficult clays for a novice shooter.I was quietly gaining all confidence on all targets seen in ESP.  It took me a long time to get on left to right crossers.  I have an eye dominance issue, and during a lesson the instructor smeared Vaseline on the inside of my left lens. I took away the lesson and practiced, and my scores climbed steadily. Smashing crossers for fun, but my most bankable straight still was on driven and going away birds.  I also learned on the lesson a technique for bunnies that had me smashing them too.Then Suddenly. BAM. 2 ex 10 on driven.  3 ex 10 the following week.  Easy driven too.  My buddy says I'm shooting up the left hand side of them, but i can't see it.  The target looks to me like it has always done.  Gun mount feels the same.Yesterday at Pevensy there was a low fast driven, that i used to smack 15-20 yards out in front of me and smoke.  It was half of an report pair and I missed all 5.  I was fuming, and just could not get it.  Still with scores close between my party i just needed a good finish and I was free from having to buy the round in the pub.  Last stand, rabbit and a teal.  One of my bankers.  I could not get the driven out of my head and fluffed that stand up to.£21 the round in the pub cost.

 

[Will Hewland]

From what you say, it seems that job no. 1 must be to try it with one eye shut! If you are a right hander, the left eye taking over will put you up the left of a driven bird. Eliminate the obvious.. You dont even need to wait for the weekend. Get out in the garden and aim at an imaginary driven target. Bring the barrel to a stop at a point (branch tip perhaps). Then shut the left eye and see if you are off. Simple test. Cheers,CSC3

 

[GavB]

woody are you still using the vaseline over one eye? i have the same problem and I have a permanent bit of sticky over the left eyeon driven birds its a nightmare because you lose sight of the bird quite early on, and its no good looking "through the gun" as all you see is gun............ I had to explain this once to a very accomplished instructor at a prestigious school who had no idea ???? as to the answer, I havent got a clue as Ive yet to have a lesson at sporting targets to sort it out

 

[Will Hewland]

Absolutely right Gav; you will lose sight with the leading eye, so will need to rely on a sense of lead, via timing. However, its much better than definately using the left eye to see the barrel, because that guarentees a miss. Once you know there is a dominance problem, I believe the tape / vaseline can be balanced to `hinder` the left eye just enough to make the right eye dominate, but still allow some peripheral vision. I admit, I know the theories well, but am fully right dominant, so no personal experience. Phew.. CSC3

 

[Bob_P]

Depending on the presentation, and it won't always be possible, try shifting your stance to take it as a crosser. At least it will give you some type of lead picture. I've done this on some slightly quartering driven and it seems to work for me.

 

[ExSCA]

I got given this advice - if I find it particularly useful for very high driven... lower and flatter seem to favour a straight on approach for me.

 

[woody]

These were low, fairly quick, and straight over your head. When I last had a lesson it was at West Kent.  I was breaking clays driven off of the crane without too much issue.  The instructor  used the mantra "Bum, Belly,Beak,Bang" when I was shooting.  When I missed a few he said it had a longer neck and beak than I was allowing.  So again "Bum, Belly, Beak.......longer beak, Bang".  Once on them I had them nailed. The same driven at Pevensy I used to straight. Perhaps I took a bang on the head one day.

 

[EdSolomons]

I'll try and pop something up either later today or tomorrow night if I get a chance which may or may not help.

 

[Hamster]

Taking them as crossers solves the problem for a given stand but it doesn't eliminate the core issue. I have cross dominance so I know exactly where you're coming from. You mention this used to be a banker for you, that doesn't surprise me as missing simple driven happens to accomplished shots with great regularity.  Like always it's hard to diagnose without actually seeing you shoot but I see hundreds of people miss simple incomers in front /wp-content/forum-smileys/sf-wink.gif. Yes of course line is critical and you may well be shooting to one side but why the sudden change in fortunes? My guess is you're addressing the tower with the barrels, calling for the bird and then rushing the shot by shooting/slashing through too fast.Next time out before calling for the bird keep the barrels way way out in front, (I have great difficulty making people understand this even standing behind them) almost just a few yards shy of your break point. Call for the bird and you'll find things are a bit more slow motion, you'll have plenty of time to let the bird catch up and slightly pass your barrels, then track/shoulder and give it what it needs - a quick flip for a slow close bird, a fast speeding up and a foot or so if higher/faster or a fast movement with a bit of inbuilt proper lead for a high fast one.  The other thing that really makes a difference on tower incomers is an open choke, trust me. /wp-content/forum-smileys/sf-smile.gif

 

[GavB]

CleverSC3 said:

Absolutely right Gav; you will lose sight with the leading eye, so will need to rely on a sense of lead, via timing. However, its much better than definately using the left eye to see the barrel, because that guarentees a miss. Once you know there is a dominance problem, I believe the tape / vaseline can be balanced to `hinder` the left eye just enough to make the right eye dominate, but still allow some peripheral vision. I admit, I know the theories well, but am fully right dominant, so no personal experience. Phew.. CSC3

Yep its this sense of timing that if your not right straight away you may as well say goodbye to a reasonable score on that stand. I take them as a crosser if I can paying close attention to the line of the bird as its easy to be off line as I experienced last week at vv.

 

[Fuzrat]

I have also struggled with this but I have no dominance issue. Had a lesson with Jim French at Ian coleys and he noticed I was hanging back onto my back foot, thus dropping my shoulder. He git me to step into the bird keeping 90 percent of my weight on the front foot and it kept me squarer. Job done.When the missus had this prob, and she does have dominance issues, we found her forend ARM was too far extended. She was getting to about 60 degrees and pulling to one side as she had effectively run out of swing. Shortened her arm up, nearly got her hand on the action, and it works. Hope some of that helpsFuzrat

 

[Will Hewland]

Best bit of advice I heard was at a shoot about 3 years ago. Fellow was missing. His mate said `come on, shoot it properly`. This seemed to correct the issue and he hit the next one. Stunning advice -and so comprehensive! I now always try and adhere to it. /wp-content/forum-smileys/sf-laugh.gifCSC3

 

[ROBERT6500]

Fuzrat said:

I have also struggled with this but I have no dominance issue. Had a lesson with Jim French at Ian coleys and he noticed I was hanging back onto my back foot, thus dropping my shoulder. He git me to step into the bird keeping 90 percent of my weight on the front foot and it kept me squarer. Job done.When the missus had this prob, and she does have dominance issues, we found her forend ARM was too far extended. She was getting to about 60 degrees and pulling to one side as she had effectively run out of swing. Shortened her arm up, nearly got her hand on the action, and it works.Hope some of that helpsFuzrat

It's difficult to say without seeing you shoot but the above is absolutely spot on. /wp-content/forum-smileys/sf-wink.gifSomething that also works for directly overhead driven birds if nothing else does is this :-See the bird with both eyes open and then shut the left eye for a second and mount onto the tail of the bird, then open the left eye again which will look like the gun is going down the right hand side of the bird which is ok. Just keep it out there on the right and then use your left eye to give it the lead. Like all things new it takes a while to get use to it but you should have it within about 10 shots as you need to understand what it is your seeing and then once its clicked, your away. /wp-content/forum-smileys/sf-wink.gif

 

[woody]

Thanks for the advice chaps.

 

[philpot]

Okay, I am a newbie on here but many years of experience on my back shooting for the North of England team back in the 80's and a trick I picked then was to approach the driven in a different way to any other target.Firstly decide where you will kill the second bird and set your stance for that bird.Secondly, call for the bird and mount at the same time so that in effect you are premounting with the point of aim at the earliest possible point.Take the first shot whilst the bird is way out or as way out as possible. This means shooting as soon as you see the bird which gives you loads more time to shoot the second bird.This take a bit of practice if you are not a fast shooter but I promise you the results will come as you get into the routine of this early attack mode. The other aspect of possible eye dominance can be checked by mounting the gun facing a mirror and shooting at you master eye-----the right eye. I used to do this as a practice every night for maybe 10mins when I used to be very active on the competition circuit. The regular mounting of a gun in a mirror lets YOU see where you are going wrong and make the adjustments needed. The other option is to have a session with a top quality coach. For some reason in this country, we carry on with average scores when we could bite the bullet and have someone put you right.After all the years I have shot clays, I had a period where my scores simply were not where I knew they should be so a weekend was booked in Suffolk and a session with John Bidwell soon put things right.Your mate is not qualified as a coach, I assume, so get the best advice you can. That is what our best shooters do because it works.Phil

 

[EdSolomons]

Without standing behind you it's tricky but the following might well help.Assuming you still have your eye patched up/closed/whatever, as soon as you get in front you lose visual on the clay. This is even worse if you shoot it gun up. For middling to high driven, start gun down, call pull and let the bird comeHalf way between the trap and the kill point. Starting from a couple of feet behind, slowly mount into the bird, steadily accelerating through it. For faster birds hold your front hand closer to the action, for slower further away. Depending on speed/hight pull the trigger just as you pass the clay or after a small delay. Keep your kill point the same each shot or you are stuffed.For lower and faster stuff, weight over the front foot, gun up, start just under your visual pick up point and as the clay passes you, move with it, overtake and squeeze the trigger. Start off shooting straight at it and work forward 6" at a time. Usually straight at them though. Don't let the low ones get too close in, they will soon beat you with speed. Good luck!