Testing Steel brands for Fitasc this Weekend

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I think you need to realise that currently in the UK we are facing powers which seem to think we should be shooting Steel when there is no solid evidence to suggest why! Lead out performs Steel fact.However the results from recent tests will show if you have no alternative which I currently have then you can find an alternative.I agree there is nothing that if shot in UK you can't shoot with it but there is no reason too.

 
Well Campers the test is complete and a very unlikely winner has one my vote of confidence for the shoots ahead in 2012 here in Steel Shot Country!!!! The cartridges selected were as follows:-Gamebore, White Gold, 28g, 6 - 210€ per 1000Gamebore, Super Steel, 28g, 7 - 205€ per 1000Clever Mirage, T2 Steel, 28g, 7 - 210€ per 1000Winchester X2 Acier, 28g, 7 - 195€ per 1000Eley VIP Steel, 24g, 7 - 200€ per 1000Clever Mirage, 24g, 7 - 200€ per 1000 We made in total 3 tests on all cartridges but by the 4th test we decided to drop 2 brands and by the 5th and final extreme test I was down to what I considered the best overall performing cartridges- Only 2!Each cartridge was rated from 1-5 1 being poor and 5 being excellent for each testThis test was designed to what I wanted. To find a shell I think can perform at a consistent level for the season ahead and that was reasonable in price and one of the key factors LOW RECOIL! I can tell you now the different brands varied an unbelievable amount. I do not know the speeds of each shell but when you switched from one brand to the other it was so much more noticeable that this must have affected the recoilConditions were very good bright and dry with a light breeze.Each test was performed with half choke and only one shot was fired per target.I chose half choke as with my current experience with steel I found this choke in the Browning 525 I have been using to be the best all-rounder, I have been shooting half and half with good results previously. RECOILRecoil was a main factor in the overall choice at the end of the tests and by the 4th test I made a decision to drop 2 of the brands even though they performed relatively well.The best to last in terms of low recoil based on the shooting completed are below:-1st Place - Winchester X2 Acier 28gram2nd Place - Clever Mirage 24gram3rd Place - Clever Mirage T2 28gram4th Place – Eley VIP Steel 24gram and Gamebore Super Steel 28gram5th Place – Gamebore White Gold 28gramI couldn’t believe that the Winchester was so soft and the Mirage T2 was not too far behind!Even better than one of the other 24gram brands! Test 1 High House Skeet Peg 5Clever T2 28gram, Winchester 28gram and Eley VIP 24gramm all scored 4ex5 points these shells actually smoked the clay in some instances. No less than 15 shots were fired at this target and you could easily see the best performing in the kills.Gamebore White Gold 28gram and Super Steel 28 gram scored 3ex5points the kills were good but they were not as good as the previous!The Clever 24 gram were very poor in some cases 4 bits was a good kill don’t know why but they were evidently the worst.Test 2 Going Away DTL Fixed Central 40 Meters (43.7yds)This test threw up a clear winner the Winchester Acier 28gram was very consistent in the breaks and you would not complain at its killing capability one bit, very good kills with this shell and with its extremely low recoil was already becoming an unlikely leader at this stage. I rated this 5ex5 on this test I was very impressed! Closely following behind was the Mirage T2 28 gram on 4ex5 then followed by all 4 remaining brands on 3ex5 points. Test 3 Standard Crosser 40 Meters (43.7yds)By Test 3 I had decided it was the end of the road for two of the brands. The Eley VIP Steel 24gram and the Clever Mirage Steel 24gram had to go. The main reason being I really wanted a 28gram shell for 2012 but I threw some 24gram in the mix just to help measure the recoil with the 28grams as well. The problem I had was that the Clever Mirage T2 28 gram and the Winchester 28gram were performing just as well in the recoil department and the killing department as the 24gram brands therefore it made sense to drop them in the end.The Winchester and the T2 were just as good on the crosser and I never missed a clay with 12 shots with the Winchester. Ok maybe I hit a purple patch but the main objective was to find a shell that hit all the right spots and build confidence in it and the Winchester was definitely doing just that! The T2 was also of a good standard ok no smoking of the clays with either but the kills were good and showed that I was really on the clay. The Gamebore brands were not bad but the recoil and the quality of the kills I was getting were evidently not to the same standard it made sense that there were only two shells really which I could see me shooting competitions and practicing with regularly.I rated the Winchester and Mirage T2 with 4ex5 and the Gamebore brands 3ex5Test 4 Rabbit 25Mtrs (27.34Yds)This test was pointless and all killed the rabbit well at this range it was a ball of dust every time with the remaining 4 cartridges brands we were testing.After this I had a quick review with Robin who was supporting and taking part in some tests, we both agreed that the Clever Mirage T2 28gram 7 and the Winchester Acier 28gram 7 were by far the best choice and we wanted to go a step further and push the boat out. For the next test was a bit of fun and to see what we could do with these shells. For the last test we needed the help of one of the ground staff!!!!!Test 5 Extreme Range Standard Looper 76.59ydsOk this was a lot of fun! So I shot 10 shots with each of the last two remaining brands before at 50yds and then we moved back and the range finder was on 76.59yards which is about 70mtrs.This was eye opening ok I admit consistency was hard mainly because it was a looper but this was the furthest target on the shoot that we could set up. This target was actually meant for another layout.So I shot 15 single shots with the Winchester and hit 7 ex 15 and the delay was evident straight away! When I put it in the right place though the maximum kill I had was 4-6 bits. I was impressed. I had a little crowd gathered including a Belgian International who was laughing away at me! I don’t think he fancied his luck!ConclusionThe most expensive shells out there might not necessarily be the best for you.Robin gave me the price list for these shells tonight when I got back, I honestly had no idea what the cost per 1000 and I was shocked the Winchester was actually the cheapest. For me the Winchester Acier 28 gram 7 is perfect in terms of performance and recoil for my shooting in 2012. Great price as well. I still cannot believe how soft it is! I know some may laugh at my tests but at the end of the day I found a steel cartridge that will kill anything that is thrown next year here if I put the steel in the right place; my shoulder will not have a giant bruise on it when I get home at night either! In the end we shot 250 targets between us with the different brands so I think we did a good enough job.Was a great day and a great laugh as well. Hopefully we can do some more tests here in the future.Thanks to Robin Visch in organizing the various Steel Cartridges for the testing and also to the Staff at De Wildenburg Shooting Ground you have a great set up and the staff are always willing to change and help to your customers needs! Glen

 
While interesting and a lot of work, it is not scientific. I am sorry to rain on your parade. First, one needs to get a chronometer to test the speeds, then pattern at the distances that you claimed. Actualy weigh and measure the pellets. This way, one could calculate retained energy at distance. You could do some mathematical computer simulation of recoil using the powder weight, ejecta and speed. Everything else is subjective! It does not work in the real world. The Lone Canadian,Henry/wp-content/forum-smileys/sf-wink.gif

 
To be fair though that would take all night and I'm sure he rather be ploughing into his missus! :)I see your point matey but also that is the level of depth most of us get into it ( I know I do). I'm much more interested in real world performance than tables of data. Both sides have their place.

 
Henry,It might not be scientific but who cares what the speed is or the pattern density or how many feet above sea level you are or the wind speed or direction, the colour of the case, the depth of the brass (actually plated steel) head.  The quality of the lunch provided doesn't matter that much either!!What Glen has done is the ultimate in testing he has fired a variety of shells from the same gun at the same targets and has come to the conclusion that for him, of the carts fired he will be happiest shooting the Winchesters.This is the real world for goodness sake, he was shooting at clays not chronos, he was pulling the trigger of a real gun in the real world not sitting in front of a computer screen clicking a mouse, simulating things.  You can carry out your tests from now till doomsday and you wont have broken a single clay nor killed a single bird.My money is on young Glen, if after what he's done he recommends the Winchesters I for one will go with that.  Thanks GlenI've always thought of shotgun shooting as an art not a science anyway. My two pennies worthMr Potter  

 
hnachaj said:

While interesting and a lot of work, it is not scientific. I am sorry to rain on your parade. First, one needs to get a chronometer to test the speeds, then pattern at the distances that you claimed. Actualy weigh and measure the pellets. This way, one could calculate retained energy at distance. You could do some mathematical computer simulation of recoil using the powder weight, ejecta and speed. Everything else is subjective! It does not work in the real world. The Lone Canadian,Henry/wp-content/forum-smileys/sf-wink.gif
Im sorry the next 2 guys raind on your parade /wp-content/forum-smileys/sf-wink.gif
 
I think Henry has a point though guys if you can add the science whilst performing real live testing in the field then you have the ultimate test and yes I am also about facts and figures because of my job I am afraid. The problem is the average clay shooter has no access to hi tech equipment but they do have access to a variety of clay targets, some chokes, their gun and some cartridges! They can do a few simple tests to find a good cartridge for them depending on what they want. I think the more experienced shooters who can read breaks know when it is user error and it is the shell.A few times I hit the front end out of a target on the crosser with the winchesters but I consider my experience good enough to be able to read that and ignore it. However even when I s hot the front out it broke it pretty good. I know I keep banging on about it but I think most shooters especially over here in steel country have no idea of the strain they are putting their bodies under with the recoil factor. To shoot some of these loads weekend week out and to be practising is crazy. The Black Gold Gamebore kick like a Mini Mag! I've shot a lot of 36 gram and they kick even more to put that through your body a minimum of 200 times a weekend is not good!People do it too just because black gold are the fashion too!The real eye opener is some of the older veterans shooting in UK now all shooting auto's with recoil systems 24gram to try to stop their trigger flinch! Another big one for me was when shooting in Portugal! I had the opportunity to watch one of the Spanish Ladies shootng her 36gram Rio's at Helice! She had so much muzzle flip on the first shot due to the recoil, I have no idea how she hit anything with the 2nd shot! Remember that was gun in the shoulder imagine if you have a few mis mounts which happens to the best Fitasc shooters even! Personally the first thing i look for in any cartridge is recoil, then it is the quality and lastly the price.With the Winchester you have all three and as a more expensive (but not much) alternative you have the Mirage T2. Glen.

 
Get a decent recoil system then you wouldn't have to worry about the kick.

 
I’m sorry but I just don’t think that if you do a test for your personal interest people go say its sh*t because there is no scientific evidence… we don’t have that kind of things to measure and compare why you going to say at a clay forum where the normal shooters test things out for others to read and to enjoy some think they need to say that there is no scientific so your test is based on bullsh*t. And if you think the same about it you shouldn’t have done the test you should do way more resurge and get the equipment you need to do that. And I can assure you Glen they don’t know in Holland ;) that’s for sure I talked to Frank he said yeah I hate recoil and he still shoots white gold (I can image because it’s a 6 ) but the Winchesters did the same job at the same distance and way less recoil 

 
well im with glen all the way on this one, the proof is in the shooting. if you have a cartridge that does the job with little recoil and gives you confidence by the way it shoots, thats what i would want.keep the science to those that want to go in that direction.

 
EnglishSportingClays.co.uk said:

Get a decent recoil system then you wouldn't have to worry about the kick.
To be honest shoot those black golds and i bet even a reducer on an auto will still kick you!They were nasty really nasty!/wp-content/forum-smileys/sf-laugh.gif/wp-content/forum-smileys/sf-laugh.gif/wp-content/forum-smileys/sf-laugh.gif/wp-content/forum-smileys/sf-laugh.gif
 
Yes good post glenn,i can,t stand recoil and that is the first thing i look for in a cartridge regardless of kills,next is kills then price.

 
Thank you Glenn, I travel a lot shooting a variety of loads. When I don't know a certain make or loading, I buy a box of the few offered. I take a shell from each box and open it up to view the construction. Does the wad cup cover all the pellets? I take my Swiss and try to cut into the pellet to check for hardness relative to the other offerings. I shoot a few of each box. The lowest recoiling is the one I use, usually. Here is an interesting tidbit about seeing that one is ahead or behind a bird due to the break:Conclusion: In these seven chapters Ron and I have shown target breaks from many points of view in 600 frames-per-second detail that has allowed you to see not only the breaks in ways you have never done before, but also where the individual pellets (and the pattern-centers that lead to those breaks) were .[SIZE=medium]1. We have shown that where the main body of the pattern was is unrelated to the resulting break.[/SIZE][SIZE=medium]2. In the final chapter we explained why all the breaks looked so much the same. In the early stage of destruction, what happens is determined by the momentum of the target.[/SIZE]

  1. 3.  [SIZE=medium]In later stages of destruction, what happens is determined by the random interaction of air and target pieces. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]4. Nowhere does the location of the center of the shot pattern play any role in the target break other than more or less “centered.”  Beyond “more smoke” and “less smoke,” breaks are all the same, are controlled by the same variables, and differ only in random and unpredictable detail[/SIZE]. You can view the videos here: http://www.northstarclaytarget.com/  Go to the Tech Corner for more info. An easy test for penetration at lets say 40 yards: Place a wet phone book and shoot the shell at it. You can now see relative energy to other loads as well as the number of pellet hits. You will be surprised how little #6 steel pellets penetrates compared to 8 lead! Henry/wp-content/forum-smileys/sf-wink.gif
 
Excellent stuff Henry really interesting thanks for this. /wp-content/forum-smileys/sf-laugh.gif/wp-content/forum-smileys/sf-laugh.gif/wp-content/forum-smileys/sf-laugh.gif/wp-content/forum-smileys/sf-laugh.gif/wp-content/forum-smileys/sf-laugh.gif/wp-content/forum-smileys/sf-laugh.gif/wp-content/forum-smileys/sf-laugh.gif/wp-content/forum-smileys/sf-laugh.gif/wp-content/forum-smileys/sf-laugh.gif

 
I can see where Henry is coming from because  absolute facts are always in the detail. Having said that what Glen's done is good enough for me/wp-content/forum-smileys/sf-smile.gif, way better read than the tosh we pay to read in gun magazines where the so called test is comprised of  two boxes of free ammo being fired at a mid week shoot and all pronounced to be lovelyjublly /wp-content/forum-smileys/sf-confused.gif.  It would be way better for such tests to be compiled by really capable shooters firing hundreds of rounds at identical birds to establish real world feel of ammo, as Glen's done. Instead we have the likes of Charles Bull who I'm sure is a lovely bloke and a good cartridge seller /wp-content/forum-smileys/sf-cool.gif publish articles where a few boxes of shells are pictured along with a summary of their contents and miraculously rounded speeds of 1400 or 1450 /wp-content/forum-smileys/sf-confused.gif fps backed by essentially pointless words.  The last batch of ammo I changed from my usual Eley Superbs to Fiocchi and whilst they'll give super breaks all the way out to 30 yards or so, they are most definitely on the back foot much beyond that compared to Eley's. This is something that I had found before too, so admittedly it would be of interest to me to know the (numbers/reasons) for this but in practice I just cannot be bothered to count holes or compare speeds or shot hardness etc, one is better in real life and that is good enough for me. By the way Henry, I bought a box of RC Red Nickels today (£6.70/wp-content/forum-smileys/sf-yell.gif) for a look see/wp-content/forum-smileys/sf-laugh.gif. They're English 7's, so the chances are a couple will be aimed at woodies /wp-content/forum-smileys/sf-cool.gif/wp-content/forum-smileys/sf-smile.gif.

 
A mate asked me who'd buy them, idiots I said./wp-content/forum-smileys/sf-laugh.gif/wp-content/forum-smileys/sf-laugh.gif Still, I can't wait to try them on a mid/hard teal stand to see if the fuss is well deserved.

 
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