I don't see that as being more unsafe. If you point it down range when there is a round in the chamber,, there should be no problem. That can be said for a conventional trigger too. Might someone who has a release trigger change their mind in the nanoseconds between pulling and releasing? Possibly - but that's why you are pointing downrange.
Release Triggers
- Thread starter Joe Nash
- Start date
Help Support :
Wonko the Sane
Well-known member
There was an extensive thread about this very thing a few mo ago but I don't find a search function here so I'm lost to help reduce the clutter.
I have been shooting releases for about 20yrs w/out a single problem. The dolt w/ the release that peppered the dogs should have been flogged. That is beyond excusable. And not JMO but a simple fact.
Charlie
I have been shooting releases for about 20yrs w/out a single problem. The dolt w/ the release that peppered the dogs should have been flogged. That is beyond excusable. And not JMO but a simple fact.
Charlie
bostonmick
Well-known member
I shoot clays with a friend who has to use a release trigger now due to a problem he developed firing the first shot his scores have returned to his normal now he is as safe as he was before.and I have no problem shooting with him.i am not sure about using them on driven game days as was said earlier beaters and dogs working in front of the line could possibly lead to an accident.i would use one if it was the only way I could continue to shoot.
N
no.1topdog
Guest
So the last time you used one Aris, what did you do when you had a no bird or a trap breakdown?
Did you keep the gun pointing downrange, in your shoulder, finger still holding back the trigger until a new target was released?
Did you take the gun down from your shoulder, gun still pointing downrange and finger still holding back the trigger, re-mounting until a new target was released?
Did you try to use your left hand (if you are right handed) to operate the top lever, gun still pointing downrange, finger still holding back the trigger?
Or did you do the only real safe thing and fire off both barrels downrange so your gun could be opened safely?
If at any time, the referee spoke to you to issue a command (perhaps he wanted to go forwards to sort out a trap problem) were you fully aware of muzzle sweep across the range as you turned to hear what he was instructing you to do?
All the above scenarios are related to standing on a Trap layout which is about as defined as you can get. However, on the Skeet or Sporting range you have more scope for unsafe muzzle sweep.
I'd be interested to know how you, or anyone else would deal with it. :biggrin:
Edit for stupid spelling mistakes (ooops!)
Did you keep the gun pointing downrange, in your shoulder, finger still holding back the trigger until a new target was released?
Did you take the gun down from your shoulder, gun still pointing downrange and finger still holding back the trigger, re-mounting until a new target was released?
Did you try to use your left hand (if you are right handed) to operate the top lever, gun still pointing downrange, finger still holding back the trigger?
Or did you do the only real safe thing and fire off both barrels downrange so your gun could be opened safely?
If at any time, the referee spoke to you to issue a command (perhaps he wanted to go forwards to sort out a trap problem) were you fully aware of muzzle sweep across the range as you turned to hear what he was instructing you to do?
All the above scenarios are related to standing on a Trap layout which is about as defined as you can get. However, on the Skeet or Sporting range you have more scope for unsafe muzzle sweep.
I'd be interested to know how you, or anyone else would deal with it. :biggrin:
Edit for stupid spelling mistakes (ooops!)
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Skeetfreak
Well-known member
- Joined
- Oct 23, 2012
- Messages
- 428
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The correct Protocol i believe for use of a release trigger is:-
i). The gun should carry a "R" sticker which can be clearly seen.
ii). The shooter should inform the referee on EVERY layout / stand that he is using a release trigger.
iii). In the event of a "no bird" / "misfire" / "trap malfunction" - the shooter should keep the gun pointed in a SAFE direction and follow the referee's instruction and open the gun using the top lever which disengages the trigger mechanism.
The GOLDEN rule is to be safe and educated with the gun / system you have bought and are using.
The correct Protocol i believe for use of a release trigger is:-
i). The gun should carry a "R" sticker which can be clearly seen.
ii). The shooter should inform the referee on EVERY layout / stand that he is using a release trigger.
iii). In the event of a "no bird" / "misfire" / "trap malfunction" - the shooter should keep the gun pointed in a SAFE direction and follow the referee's instruction and open the gun using the top lever which disengages the trigger mechanism.
The GOLDEN rule is to be safe and educated with the gun / system you have bought and are using.
N
no.1topdog
Guest
Thank you Skeetfreak for your research into the correct use of Release Triggers.
It is interesting that none of the earlier supporters or users of these guns have come forward with the correct response to the set of scenarios I proposed. Perhaps they were not aware of what to do in these instances so I can only assume that between us, we have averted a possible shooting accident , which cannot be a bad thing (If, of course, they have read your posting).
Hopefully people who see these triggers being used (and I have never, ever, seen an "R" sticker on one of these, or been informed of it's use when refereeing or any other time) will observe the shooter to ensure they follow correct procedure and point out to them if they do not (which sadly is sometimes lacking - SPEAK UP, YOU MAY SAVE A LIFE!).
I am not opposed to the use of release triggers themselves, but I believe the shooter using them has to be trained in their use as they require a whole new set of safety guidelines. :biggrin:
It is interesting that none of the earlier supporters or users of these guns have come forward with the correct response to the set of scenarios I proposed. Perhaps they were not aware of what to do in these instances so I can only assume that between us, we have averted a possible shooting accident , which cannot be a bad thing (If, of course, they have read your posting).
Hopefully people who see these triggers being used (and I have never, ever, seen an "R" sticker on one of these, or been informed of it's use when refereeing or any other time) will observe the shooter to ensure they follow correct procedure and point out to them if they do not (which sadly is sometimes lacking - SPEAK UP, YOU MAY SAVE A LIFE!).
I am not opposed to the use of release triggers themselves, but I believe the shooter using them has to be trained in their use as they require a whole new set of safety guidelines. :biggrin:
N
no.1topdog
Guest
I've never lost my sense of safety, but I still think they are the invention of The Devil!! :sarcastic:Good to see you have come to your senses
If I ever get to the point where I need a release trigger, I shall wear a large Rimmer style R on my forehead just for you
Wonko the Sane
Well-known member
On the rare moment when there is a no target situation it is the simplest of matters to take the gun down and open it with the left hand. No problemo. And I use a release/pull w/ the release only on the first barrel.
I don't know who made skeetfreek's rules but they are BS AFAIC. I wouldn't have an "R" sticker anywhere on one of my guns and if someone picks up my gun by mistake he has way more to worry about than a release trigger.
Mechanisms do not put lives at risk - - - stupid puts lives at risk. To my knowledge no one has ever been harmed by a release trigger. Well that's not true. I did pinch some skin once putting one back together.
The antis on this topic need a stiff shot of reality and common sense. If you don't know WTF you're talking about then STFU.
And if you want SAFE, nothing is safer than a monster trigger pull - I mean you gotta WANT that baby to go off. I'm thinking a mandated 8lbs minimum. Maybe more.
maybe I should move and run for CPSA board
just sayin'
Charlie
I don't know who made skeetfreek's rules but they are BS AFAIC. I wouldn't have an "R" sticker anywhere on one of my guns and if someone picks up my gun by mistake he has way more to worry about than a release trigger.
Mechanisms do not put lives at risk - - - stupid puts lives at risk. To my knowledge no one has ever been harmed by a release trigger. Well that's not true. I did pinch some skin once putting one back together.
The antis on this topic need a stiff shot of reality and common sense. If you don't know WTF you're talking about then STFU.
And if you want SAFE, nothing is safer than a monster trigger pull - I mean you gotta WANT that baby to go off. I'm thinking a mandated 8lbs minimum. Maybe more.
maybe I should move and run for CPSA board
just sayin'
Charlie
Last edited by a moderator:
Wonko the Sane
Well-known member
Some History
Subject: When was the release trigger intoduced into ATA?
From: Drew Hause
Date: Wed, Jan 01, 2014 - 04:42 PM ET
Website Address: http://www.bingle.com/patents/US2136511
Patent filed in 1937 by Poyner Jones for a pull-release trigger with an interesting commentary suggesting release triggers were commonly used at that time -
As is well known to those skilled in the art, within recent years there have been a number of trigger mechanisms wherein the gun is fired by releasing the trigger rather than by pulling the trigger. This trigger mechanism is known as a release trigger. The real purpose of the release trigger is to try to overcome the tendency in the shooter to flinch, which flinching is due to nerves and also to the fact that in applying pressure to the trigger, anywheres from three and one-half to seven pounds, the muscles become taut and the shooter is unable to hold the gun at the desired point of position or even pull the trigger.
It is a well-known fact, however, that where a release trigger is used, the loosening of the muscles, that is, on the releasing of the trigger, has a great tendency to overcome flinching.
Release triggers have heretofore been mostly applied to trap guns, that is, guns which are used at the traps, rather than to field guns, as to change over entailed a dismantling of the mechanism.
Subject: When was the release trigger intoduced into ATA?
From: NintyT
Date: Wed, Jan 01, 2014 - 08:15 PM ET
Website Address:
I have a large collection of old Trap and Field magazines,mane the earlier name "Sportsmen's Review". During the twenties numerous shooters used one called "Dr. Pollard's Relaxing Trigger". If my memory serves me, Charles Sparrow used one of these. Not too long ago someone posted here that they had a 1916 Ithaca with a Pollard's Relaxing Trigger. Steve Johnson
Subject: When was the release trigger intoduced into ATA?
From: KennyRay
Date: Sun, Jan 05, 2014 - 11:49 AM ET
Website Address:
In May 1915 Lester German was looking at the score on the bulletin board with a couple of other shooters. The shooter leaving #5 post, walking to #1 post, loaded his gun and closed the action. The shotgun discharged and Mr. German took a load of shot in his back.
This was before the days of release triggers on the trap fields. Although Major Murray Baldwin had been credited with inventing the release trigger for rifles about 1905. Baldwin's trigger was actually referred to as a "relaxing trigger."
He made an improvement to his trigger about 1920 and the Springfield Armory started manufacturing them. Rifles with relaxing triggers were used at the Marine Corps rifle range.
Baldwin convinced the Army's Infantry Board to conduct tests on his trigger in the '03 rifles at Ft. Benning. The Army chose not to use these releasing triggers.
The earliest I have on record for release triggers at an ATA trapshooting event is in early 1932 when Howard V. Aiken, a former "flincher" won several trophies at Punta Gorda, using Dr. Pollard's "Relaxing Trigger."
There were many "Single Trigger" patents long before those of Elmer E. Miller. To the best of my knowlege, these were not "release triggers" but actually were for the purpose of replacing the two triggers on the old Side-by-Side Double Barrel shotguns with one trigger. The design was to both permit either barrel to be selected for the first shot and eliminated the longstanding problem of "doubling" caused by the successive firing of the second barrel due to the recoil which caused the shooter's finger to pull the second trigger. I would like to know the Patent Number for Mr. Miller's release trigger for my records if anyone has it.
Charles A. Young has long been credited with inventing the release trigger but he himself said in a 1936 advertisment for his trigger that it "May not have been the first, but surely was the best at Yorklyn, Delaware, 831 out of 853 regular targets." His U.S. patent for a release trigger states "Release fire guns are now well known." Patent No. 2,027,950 filed January 27, 1933, granted January 14, 1936.
Charley Young did claim that he made the first release for a pump gun and he also took credit for making the first release trigger that could be a "release or pull" without any extra parts.
Charley Young had many other gun inventions and was one of the top shooters of the era.
Charles A. "Sparrow" Young died of a heart attack at the age of 85 in the year 1951.
I would appreciate any information of earlier "release triggers" being used along with its source. I collect information on just about everything related to trap shooting.
Thanks,
Kenny Ray
HTH
Charlie
Subject: When was the release trigger intoduced into ATA?
From: Drew Hause
Date: Wed, Jan 01, 2014 - 04:42 PM ET
Website Address: http://www.bingle.com/patents/US2136511
Patent filed in 1937 by Poyner Jones for a pull-release trigger with an interesting commentary suggesting release triggers were commonly used at that time -
As is well known to those skilled in the art, within recent years there have been a number of trigger mechanisms wherein the gun is fired by releasing the trigger rather than by pulling the trigger. This trigger mechanism is known as a release trigger. The real purpose of the release trigger is to try to overcome the tendency in the shooter to flinch, which flinching is due to nerves and also to the fact that in applying pressure to the trigger, anywheres from three and one-half to seven pounds, the muscles become taut and the shooter is unable to hold the gun at the desired point of position or even pull the trigger.
It is a well-known fact, however, that where a release trigger is used, the loosening of the muscles, that is, on the releasing of the trigger, has a great tendency to overcome flinching.
Release triggers have heretofore been mostly applied to trap guns, that is, guns which are used at the traps, rather than to field guns, as to change over entailed a dismantling of the mechanism.
Subject: When was the release trigger intoduced into ATA?
From: NintyT
Date: Wed, Jan 01, 2014 - 08:15 PM ET
Website Address:
I have a large collection of old Trap and Field magazines,mane the earlier name "Sportsmen's Review". During the twenties numerous shooters used one called "Dr. Pollard's Relaxing Trigger". If my memory serves me, Charles Sparrow used one of these. Not too long ago someone posted here that they had a 1916 Ithaca with a Pollard's Relaxing Trigger. Steve Johnson
Subject: When was the release trigger intoduced into ATA?
From: KennyRay
Date: Sun, Jan 05, 2014 - 11:49 AM ET
Website Address:
In May 1915 Lester German was looking at the score on the bulletin board with a couple of other shooters. The shooter leaving #5 post, walking to #1 post, loaded his gun and closed the action. The shotgun discharged and Mr. German took a load of shot in his back.
This was before the days of release triggers on the trap fields. Although Major Murray Baldwin had been credited with inventing the release trigger for rifles about 1905. Baldwin's trigger was actually referred to as a "relaxing trigger."
He made an improvement to his trigger about 1920 and the Springfield Armory started manufacturing them. Rifles with relaxing triggers were used at the Marine Corps rifle range.
Baldwin convinced the Army's Infantry Board to conduct tests on his trigger in the '03 rifles at Ft. Benning. The Army chose not to use these releasing triggers.
The earliest I have on record for release triggers at an ATA trapshooting event is in early 1932 when Howard V. Aiken, a former "flincher" won several trophies at Punta Gorda, using Dr. Pollard's "Relaxing Trigger."
There were many "Single Trigger" patents long before those of Elmer E. Miller. To the best of my knowlege, these were not "release triggers" but actually were for the purpose of replacing the two triggers on the old Side-by-Side Double Barrel shotguns with one trigger. The design was to both permit either barrel to be selected for the first shot and eliminated the longstanding problem of "doubling" caused by the successive firing of the second barrel due to the recoil which caused the shooter's finger to pull the second trigger. I would like to know the Patent Number for Mr. Miller's release trigger for my records if anyone has it.
Charles A. Young has long been credited with inventing the release trigger but he himself said in a 1936 advertisment for his trigger that it "May not have been the first, but surely was the best at Yorklyn, Delaware, 831 out of 853 regular targets." His U.S. patent for a release trigger states "Release fire guns are now well known." Patent No. 2,027,950 filed January 27, 1933, granted January 14, 1936.
Charley Young did claim that he made the first release for a pump gun and he also took credit for making the first release trigger that could be a "release or pull" without any extra parts.
Charley Young had many other gun inventions and was one of the top shooters of the era.
Charles A. "Sparrow" Young died of a heart attack at the age of 85 in the year 1951.
I would appreciate any information of earlier "release triggers" being used along with its source. I collect information on just about everything related to trap shooting.
Thanks,
Kenny Ray
HTH
Charlie
I think we have far greater safety issues to sort out than release triggers!
A chap came out of a safety cage yesterday with a semi auto, he'd just shot a pair so the breech was closed.
I said " Excuse me your bolt is forward, can you open the breech please?"
He said " I know " and proceeded to walk past 15-20 people waiting , not one of them said a word.
A chap came out of a safety cage yesterday with a semi auto, he'd just shot a pair so the breech was closed.
I said " Excuse me your bolt is forward, can you open the breech please?"
He said " I know " and proceeded to walk past 15-20 people waiting , not one of them said a word.
OT (sorry), but I have issues with some Semi-Auto shooters. IMHO they should all have breech flags in place in the same situations where break actions are broken + also when the firearm is in the slip as you can't remove a semi-auto from a slip 'broken'.
P
** Pending Removal **
Guest
Salopian you just made me go cold...I ducking hate autos..!!
Wonko......you got my vote...get your plane ticket over quick because the funeral was Saturday and by the time you get to Blighty we should be hearing about how to apply for the position :wink:
Remember to land in the South West of the UK.....find an old relative who is English (like they do when going to Ireland) and ......
......oh bugger.....that won't work....!
You have to have been a member for 3 years..!!
Never mind.....slight change of plan :wink: .......land.....check into a pub, use the address to fill in membership forms....give them some wonga to pay the renewals for the three years....then go home...then fly back in 3 years time and just pretend that you live at the pub and that it is your main address.....(don't worry....loadsapeople do it........pretend they live at an address that they don't live at :wink: ...not always a pub though)
We all vote for you.....you get on the Board....jobs a good un (English saying for 'you smash it' )..and we all live happily ever after....without shooting sporting (which you banned....along with autos....but not jeans (sorry IPS)... :laugh: )
Wonko......you got my vote...get your plane ticket over quick because the funeral was Saturday and by the time you get to Blighty we should be hearing about how to apply for the position :wink:
Remember to land in the South West of the UK.....find an old relative who is English (like they do when going to Ireland) and ......
......oh bugger.....that won't work....!
You have to have been a member for 3 years..!!
Never mind.....slight change of plan :wink: .......land.....check into a pub, use the address to fill in membership forms....give them some wonga to pay the renewals for the three years....then go home...then fly back in 3 years time and just pretend that you live at the pub and that it is your main address.....(don't worry....loadsapeople do it........pretend they live at an address that they don't live at :wink: ...not always a pub though)
We all vote for you.....you get on the Board....jobs a good un (English saying for 'you smash it' )..and we all live happily ever after....without shooting sporting (which you banned....along with autos....but not jeans (sorry IPS)... :laugh: )
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N
no.1topdog
Guest
Thank you Aris. I shall look out for you. :biggrin:If I ever get to the point where I need a release trigger, I shall wear a large Rimmer style R on my forehead just for you
ips
Well-known member
- Joined
- Jul 19, 2012
- Messages
- 15,642
Skeetfreak
Well-known member
- Joined
- Oct 23, 2012
- Messages
- 428
This will be my last post on this topic as we can just continue to go round in ever decreasing circles.
The CPSA guidelines for release triggers are in BOOKLET 5 - See Link:- https://www.cpsa.co.uk/userfiles/file/CPSA_Rule_Book_05(1).pdf
But to help its on page 15 and it says:- "2.38 If a shooter is using a gun with any form of release trigger it is mandatory to notify the Shoot Organiser when booking into a competition that he/she is doing so. The Shoot Organiser must then mark all appropriate scorecards with this fact. The competitor must also notify the referee on every stand or round prior to shooting. Failure to comply on each occasion will result in the loss of one target (3 points DTL)"
The shooter i regular shoot with applies his release trigger sticker in the same manner as the picture below and clearly shows this sticker to the referee BEFORE shooting that layout / stand and also informs any shooters on the squad who may be unaware. I know another shooter who has had a VERY nice metal engraving done and has mounted it in the same location and it looks great. Plus of course these are clearly visible when a gun is in a rack and can act as an identifying mark to indicate YOUR gun ot NOT as the case may be.
Wonko - I see you live in a differing country to us over here and i am certain that the NSSA / NSCA / ATA have differing rules to the CPSA on the use of release triggers. I do KNOW that the NSSA rules are much more clearly defined and can be found in their rule book.
NSSA guidelines for release triggers can be found in the rule book here:- http://www.nssa-nsca.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/2013-NSSA-Rule-Book-Rev-04-13.pdf
But to help its on page 37 and it says:- "A shooter will not be permitted to use a gun with a release type trigger unless the referee and the other members of the squad are notified. Extra caution must be exercised if the gun is given to a referee who is unfamiliar with its operation. Guns with release-type triggers must be clearly marked with designated safety stickers. Release trigger stickers, with instructions on placement, are available from NSSA Headquarters. Please call or write to Membership Services"
NSCA guidelines which i looked up (not familiar with the NSCA rules) for release triggers can be found in the rule book here:- http://www.nssa-nsca.org/wp-content/uploads/2010/03/2013-NSCA-Rule-Book-10-3-2013.pdf
But to help its on page 29 and it says:- "Guns with release type triggers are allowed and must be clearly marked and Shoot Officials notified of their presence. Safety stickers designating release trigger, with instructions on placement, are available at no charge from NSCA Headquarters. Please send your request in writing"
ATA guidelines are here:- http://www.shootata.com/Portals/0/pdf/ata_rulebook_web.pdf
Although i do confess i cannot find a mention of release triggers upon a quick scan of it.
Sure i accept that no doubt everyone has personal opinion and feelings on this subject but when they are clearly defined in the rule book that certain protocols are to be followed then on the shooters head be it when they are not. After all it is up to us as the participants to ensure we have a safe and fun day out. If we are not responsible enough to do so then the obligation falls to the ground owner and the referee to make SURE we do for everyone's sake.
The CPSA guidelines for release triggers are in BOOKLET 5 - See Link:- https://www.cpsa.co.uk/userfiles/file/CPSA_Rule_Book_05(1).pdf
But to help its on page 15 and it says:- "2.38 If a shooter is using a gun with any form of release trigger it is mandatory to notify the Shoot Organiser when booking into a competition that he/she is doing so. The Shoot Organiser must then mark all appropriate scorecards with this fact. The competitor must also notify the referee on every stand or round prior to shooting. Failure to comply on each occasion will result in the loss of one target (3 points DTL)"
The shooter i regular shoot with applies his release trigger sticker in the same manner as the picture below and clearly shows this sticker to the referee BEFORE shooting that layout / stand and also informs any shooters on the squad who may be unaware. I know another shooter who has had a VERY nice metal engraving done and has mounted it in the same location and it looks great. Plus of course these are clearly visible when a gun is in a rack and can act as an identifying mark to indicate YOUR gun ot NOT as the case may be.
Wonko - I see you live in a differing country to us over here and i am certain that the NSSA / NSCA / ATA have differing rules to the CPSA on the use of release triggers. I do KNOW that the NSSA rules are much more clearly defined and can be found in their rule book.
NSSA guidelines for release triggers can be found in the rule book here:- http://www.nssa-nsca.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/2013-NSSA-Rule-Book-Rev-04-13.pdf
But to help its on page 37 and it says:- "A shooter will not be permitted to use a gun with a release type trigger unless the referee and the other members of the squad are notified. Extra caution must be exercised if the gun is given to a referee who is unfamiliar with its operation. Guns with release-type triggers must be clearly marked with designated safety stickers. Release trigger stickers, with instructions on placement, are available from NSSA Headquarters. Please call or write to Membership Services"
NSCA guidelines which i looked up (not familiar with the NSCA rules) for release triggers can be found in the rule book here:- http://www.nssa-nsca.org/wp-content/uploads/2010/03/2013-NSCA-Rule-Book-10-3-2013.pdf
But to help its on page 29 and it says:- "Guns with release type triggers are allowed and must be clearly marked and Shoot Officials notified of their presence. Safety stickers designating release trigger, with instructions on placement, are available at no charge from NSCA Headquarters. Please send your request in writing"
ATA guidelines are here:- http://www.shootata.com/Portals/0/pdf/ata_rulebook_web.pdf
Although i do confess i cannot find a mention of release triggers upon a quick scan of it.
Sure i accept that no doubt everyone has personal opinion and feelings on this subject but when they are clearly defined in the rule book that certain protocols are to be followed then on the shooters head be it when they are not. After all it is up to us as the participants to ensure we have a safe and fun day out. If we are not responsible enough to do so then the obligation falls to the ground owner and the referee to make SURE we do for everyone's sake.
Last edited by a moderator:
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