radrac
Well-known member
How easily enthusiasm and innocence is exploited......... :.:
Cheddite Cartridges?
- Thread starter Nicky T
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It is difficult to improve on Emmsy's breakdown of the mechanics of shot string 
without going into one too many paragraphs but here goes:
Your shot charge goes from a near single mass at a few feet to a much more open print of individual pellets at say 30 yards that look near as dammit round, called a pattern. Men with time on their hands have found that in fact the shot cloud is somewhat tear drop shaped whilst in flight, i.e elongated.
This led to many concluding that a longer elongated shape would by definition increase your margin of error, correct as it happens. But it only really works at Skeet (close) ranges using small shot sizes (they used to use 32 gram shells too remember) which can compensate for the opening up of the pattern by sheer number of pellets, typically 2mm size 9's.
We can't use 9's or 32g loads for Man grade sporting presentations, so we end up having to find other ways of increasing hits at range, this is called real skill.
There are living shooting legends including British champions who advocated that a longer string allowed us to commonly hit crossing targets by over-leading them , reasoning that the clay which missed contact with the pellets at the head of the elongated cloud, would be head butted by slower trailing pellets. Unfortunately this sounded (sounds) perfectly plausible, but is utter nonsense in practice.
I have not made this up by the way, but having read more recent experimentations by the Americans coupled to my own experience, have come to believe that a short string is unfortunately more conducive to solid hits at range. This is just as well since there are no reliable ways of getting a longer string in any case.
It is easier in fact to live with a short string that registers a readable imprint of the break which allows repetition of the sequence, than weak (by definition) breaks at range that ultimately rely on luck as much as judgement. This is why the top guys love the fact so many of us shoot 1/4 choke at edge on crossers etc at 40 yards. :.:
without going into one too many paragraphs but here goes:Your shot charge goes from a near single mass at a few feet to a much more open print of individual pellets at say 30 yards that look near as dammit round, called a pattern. Men with time on their hands have found that in fact the shot cloud is somewhat tear drop shaped whilst in flight, i.e elongated.
This led to many concluding that a longer elongated shape would by definition increase your margin of error, correct as it happens. But it only really works at Skeet (close) ranges using small shot sizes (they used to use 32 gram shells too remember) which can compensate for the opening up of the pattern by sheer number of pellets, typically 2mm size 9's.
We can't use 9's or 32g loads for Man grade sporting presentations, so we end up having to find other ways of increasing hits at range, this is called real skill.
There are living shooting legends including British champions who advocated that a longer string allowed us to commonly hit crossing targets by over-leading them
, reasoning that the clay which missed contact with the pellets at the head of the elongated cloud, would be head butted by slower trailing pellets. Unfortunately this sounded (sounds) perfectly plausible, but is utter nonsense in practice.I have not made this up by the way, but having read more recent experimentations by the Americans coupled to my own experience, have come to believe that a short string is unfortunately more conducive to solid hits at range. This is just as well since there are no reliable ways of getting a longer string in any case.
It is easier in fact to live with a short string that registers a readable imprint of the break which allows repetition of the sequence, than weak (by definition) breaks at range that ultimately rely on luck as much as judgement. This is why the top guys love the fact so many of us shoot 1/4 choke at edge on crossers etc at 40 yards. :.:
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Emmsy
Guest
would it not also be true that the string is lengthened / made more dense somewhat by the use of more choke.
radrac
Well-known member
Okay..Thanks Hamster I think I get it. Will choke size or shot size directly impact the string length, or is it purely the design of individual cartridges that impact it?
Your philosophy on tight relaible patterns for sporting targets I know would mirror "Fauldsy"'s who is a firm believer in tight chokes and bigger shot size (6.5/7) than the majority of competitors would use....
Your philosophy on tight relaible patterns for sporting targets I know would mirror "Fauldsy"'s who is a firm believer in tight chokes and bigger shot size (6.5/7) than the majority of competitors would use....
Not sure I understand the question Emmsy as it seems to contradict itself. Lengthening the string will by definition decrease density as you're asking the same number of pellets to spread themselves out more thinly to cover more ground.
For the record tests, by the Americans again, have proved beyond doubt that if anything less choke lengthens the shot string, not more.
To all intents and purposes no specific combo does anything as such for the length of the string. If you shoot a Skeet shell size 9 through certain specialist guns with Tulip (I think) and other wonderful recipes, then yes, it is possible to increase the length without suffering loss of usable density. I have a feeling these are now banned anyway and in sporting type scenarios it just doesn't enter the equation.
How I wish this was my philosophy
, really good shooters all seem to shoot at least 3/4 but I doubt they took my advice. :.: :.:
radrac
Well-known member
Would seem logical that less choke decreases overall density and hence would lengthen the string....
Just because you might have nicked it from others doesn't make "your" philosophy any less worthy.....!! :.: :.:
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Emmsy
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POPCORN !!!!!!!!!!!!!
TobyM
Well-known member
Help!!! Deja vu anyone?
Salted please Nic
Salted please Nic
optima
Well-known member
radrac
Well-known member
Aren't you both saying the same thing...?
tight choke...narrow pattern...dense/short string
loose choke....wider pattern...less dense/long string
Oh I get it now, :wink: yes I suppose if you could actually narrow the pattern i,e. squeeze at top and bottom whilst pulling at the sides, then you would in fact arrive at increased density where shot still remains.
It does beg the question though, what on earth makes you think you wouldn't still miss at least as many as before above or below? Not that I for a second think you could actually achieve those sorts of improvised patterns anywhoo. :.: What advantage you'd gain in better margin of error sideways, you'd fritter away in having less to play with in unexpected rise or drops, or just plain misreading of the line.
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Emmsy
Guest
., no i still dont think you got it. take a tube 10ft long 6ft wide and spread 500 shot equally amongst and then the same with a 10ft by 3ft tube and you would have increased the density. im not talking about having deformed oval patterns.
anyway its all trivial crap that doesnt really matter, some folk will always shoot skeet choke at everything others will have full, its really whatever floats your boat.
anyway its all trivial crap that doesnt really matter, some folk will always shoot skeet choke at everything others will have full, its really whatever floats your boat.
EdSolomons
Well-known member
Just collected my gun and ha a shot- can think of 99 reasons why 3/4 works well for me and pellet counting and pattern plates can stay at home!!
Clynt
Well-known member
here it is 30 years ago we ventured to a big country sports fair in Shropshire...at this fair as well as several shoots there was a company who had set up a rolling pattern testing facility, which had pics of pheasants on and at 30yds you were asked to shoot at the chosen target with your perceived lead, this then showed shot placement on a moving target ??? it was clear to me that full choke left a far further trail of shot on the target than my mates imp cyl .....so this backs up your theory Stu and if my memory serves me right there was a measurement taken from first pellet contact to last pellet contact and choked patterns were longer !!!! and the faster the target the slightly longer the shot string was
and truthfully that is the only way to test shot string...and this is why people tend to hit more teal with tighter choke.
one of the best shooters ever A.J.Smith once told me when you first start shooting clays you don't need choke.....but the better you get the more you need....
Clynt, what you describe is exactly what is mistakenly believed and touted by even some experienced coaches who take what they hear in the pub as gospel.
In controlled tests it has been found not to be the case. One of the reasons many initially thought it ought to be the case was comparing the behaviour of a tight choke to that of squeezing the end of a water hose, as we all know doing so will both narrow and elongate the flow , it doesn't transfer to guns and ammo .
The reason people tend to hit more teal with tight chokes is much simpler than you think, there's less escape gaps see . There's a very simple way of testing this non-phenomenon for yourself, next time you have access to a pond and if it's safe to do so, get a mate to fire a dozen shots with a fast moving gun at the water using open and tight chokes without telling you. You may well spot the tighter choke, but only for it's compactness, not its e-longevity (new word).
In controlled tests it has been found not to be the case. One of the reasons many initially thought it ought to be the case was comparing the behaviour of a tight choke to that of squeezing the end of a water hose, as we all know doing so will both narrow and elongate the flow
, it doesn't transfer to guns and ammo .The reason people tend to hit more teal with tight chokes is much simpler than you think, there's less escape gaps see
. There's a very simple way of testing this non-phenomenon for yourself, next time you have access to a pond and if it's safe to do so, get a mate to fire a dozen shots with a fast moving gun at the water using open and tight chokes without telling you. You may well spot the tighter choke, but only for it's compactness, not its e-longevity (new word).That's exactly how I get it Emmsy, I'm saying what's the point in doing so when you're just robbing Peter to pay Paul? The fact remains you can't dictate that kind of behaviour change in patterns in any case, not beyond Skeet range and not without causing other problems.
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Bored now!!!
By the way.......did I tell you already that Abbey won a Gold medal at the World Cup in Italy today?
Now that 'is' worth talking about.
Brilliant shooting Abs.
By the way.......did I tell you already that Abbey won a Gold medal at the World Cup in Italy today?
Now that 'is' worth talking about.
Brilliant shooting Abs.
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Emmsy
Guest
aye as said earlier whatever floats your boat
i think this topic should be put to bed as another thing not to even bother worrying about.
i think this topic should be put to bed as another thing not to even bother worrying about.
