At what point does a instructor become a coach?

I keep seeing on fb and at clubs very average club shooters instructing novices which is fine,untill they get there certificate from the cpsa or basc or one of the other buy a career bodies set up to make instructors in to a bonafide coach.Surly a shooting coach should at least have experiance of the level that the student wants to succeed at eg if your after a nationall team place a internationally experianced shooter would give a better insite into whats needed at that level than a club shooter whos never even shot outside the country. Im not saying only the top shots should coach but im sick of seeing people with next to no competition experiance making out that they can turn people into great shooters. 

Interesting question however many great coaches in many sports are not as good as the people they teach. Whats the saying those that can do those that cant teach.

I do think you have a point though particularly about the competition mind set required etc although now we have specific folk who teach just that.

Like ips said, know how and doing are not the same thing.  I would judge a coach's effectiveness by how well "I" progressed

Good point Charlie.

A instructor can get you hitting things but only a experianced coach/competitor can tell you how to handle a big comp  and what you can expect with the running order of where and when things happen at said comp .

When you become a Level 2 is the official definition. :wink:

A good coach will get the pupil to the level the pupil wants and maybe beyond. I am using two people to help my shooting and I am happy to call them coaches if they claim to be or not - they have taken me from a non- shooter to a county shooter and an ESP average of 82% and I am just finishing my third season. This I couldn't have achieved without them but my original coach is more of a mentor figure now backing up what I have learnt while my second coach is pushing me forward to better practises to try and achieve in majors and push up the classes.

The coaching process has been a fluid process for me changing as my shooting does, and an open mind has been the best solution.

For information: My approach was to use my budget in the best way, I may shoot around 22 to 30 reg shoots per classification period and maybe another 2000 clays practise etc. The coaching has allowed me to maximise the learning curve and now the coaching is reduced to allow me to put things into practise.

I would suggest that coaches at all levels can be useful and as long as they are teaching good habits and shooting and not their perceived good habits and shooting they should be able to help pupils at the various levels.

For example: I would happily teach a novice basic shooting skills and some of the techniques but if he / she wanted to make AA in two years I would suggest a professional coach that could offer the time and quality of tuition to get to that level.

I suppose you can look at coaches in other sports. For instance Olympic athletics. Do all their coaches have experience of world standard athletic competitions? Not too sure? Or football coaches?, etc.

Not quite sure what point I'm trying to make, but I guess the answer to the OP's question might not be that simple.

Tinker,

 Do  detect tongue in cheek in that smiley?

SP Clay,

A very good level headed post.

Paul, 

 I cannot comment as I think you may have an axe to grind, and I don't wish to put my foot in it (for a change).  I am learning diplomacy .

S p clay has it in one what you sometimes need is a mentor not necessarily a coach. My current one is very good and very cheap

Salopian said:

Tinker,

 Do  detect tongue in cheek in that smiley?

SP Clay,

A very good level headed post.

Paul, 

 I cannot comment as I think you may have an axe to grind, and I don't wish to put my foot in it (for a change).  I am learning diplomacy .

Click to expand...

 Not realy an axe to grind,more of a annoyance with people coming on the scene with there new shooting coach badge after only shooting for a few months,while you and other coaches have years of shooting and coaching experiance under your hat,that cost alot more than a certificate.

Seems like a lot of good advice is coming out of Congleton !

It is a fact of life that experience takes time to gain Paul. I have been very fortunate to have been able to shoot, learn with  and copy the very best.One thing is for sure I do not think that you can coach to a high level and maintain your own competitive edge, one has to make way for the other .

But I get tremendous pleasure to be able to identify a fault and offer a solution based upon experience.

I think I know exactly where you are coming from regards FB and certification, but chill out , let them massage their ego's because you will not be doing it for them. 

Remember The World is made round to revolve.

I think the key to being a good "coach" is that they can tell you "why" you missed rather than "where". If you want to know how to win a world championship the only person who can tell you is a world champion obviously. But that doesn't mean that you have to be a world champion to coach. Some of the best coaches in the world simply have the ability to teach people to realize what they already know. What I mean there is that most of us know what to do to hit targets but its difficult to see the problem in ourselves. How many times have you done the same thing after missing the target the first time? The ability to teach self coaching is key to being a good coach. As for the "your behind it" or the "I've got a certificate" instructors they're best avoided. 

Depends on the discipline to some extent, for sporting if the coach cannot consistently hit the target you are struggling on or achieve the constancy you are aiming for then how do they know what they are teaching works. Sure if their clientele includes great shots that attribute their success to them that's different. At least with a great shot they can tell you how they do it which might also work for you If nothing else.

A coach with just a certificate or inflated high opinion of themselves with no major success for themselves or students is nothing more than an instructor for beginners. I believe a coach has to have had success on the shooting ground, either for themselves or a student, it doesn't necessarily have to be a championship but at least some decent class wins in the higher classes.

I do accept that just because someone can shoot doesn't mean their communication skills or observation of others Is up to scratch which also would make them a worse coach than a lesser shot.

Also If your problem is on the mental side, the pressure gets to you, toys out of the pram sort of thing then seeing someone who is a fantastic shot might not help much at all.

But I would go for success for themselves and students and I don't include giving a bloke two lessons when he was a beginner that's now made it in AAA As a former successful student.

paul bailey said:

I keep seeing on fb and at clubs very average club shooters instructing novices which is fine,untill they get there certificate from the cpsa or basc or one of the other buy a career bodies set up to make instructors in to a bonafide coach.Surly a shooting coach should at least have experiance of the level that the student wants to succeed at eg if your after a nationall team place a internationally experianced shooter would give a better insite into whats needed at that level than a club shooter whos never even shot outside the country. Im not saying only the top shots should coach but im sick of seeing people with next to no competition experiance making out that they can turn people into great shooters. 

Click to expand...

I can see your point Paul to an extent but I disagree. In most trades having demonstrable skill is key to being an effective leader / coach etc, but Sport is a bit different, and I think it depends on what discipline you shoot as well. In Trap there are a few operating as coaches who had highly successful shooting careers and are still great shots, but IMO a few of these aren't good at coaching at all. This is based on my first hand experience of their services, and my own observations of the general conduct of some whilst coaching, and at competitions. They are just making hay while the sun is shining off the back of their personal shooting success, and good luck to them.

I would only recommend three Trap coaches in this country, one is not an International shooter, he isn't even English but he's more effective at imparting what his shooters' need to know in order for them to make notable improvements, and the other two have both been successful in National champs, shot for England etc and are both gunsmiths.   

Jay this brings me on to a conversation with a shootclay trap shooter the other week,where we were talking olympic champs and it turned out that our last one was coached by a former champ who new what it takes to get to the very top and yes having some tidy funds helped.  

paul bailey said:

Not realy an axe to grind,more of a annoyance with people coming on the scene with there new shooting coach badge after only shooting for a few months,while you and other coaches have years of shooting and coaching experiance under your hat,that cost alot more than a certificate.

Click to expand...

A good coach does not need to wear any badges.....just saying :wink:

There is one badge that no coach should be without though...