Shooting reg cpsa for wheelchair shooter

[Salopian]

I think that if a ground is Premier status it should be totally accessable to wheelchairs, if not it should be downgraded.

If every target was easily seen from the seat of a wheelchair I may stand a chance of seeing more.

 

[ehb102]

Eriswell Lodge is pretty good, especially when Phil Moss is setting the targets. I think he has posted here about having  a ref who shoots from a  chair. AGL are brilliant for accessibility, took my dad on a scooter all  around, but might have an alternative on one of the stands if they set a registered as they have one platform stand. 

 

[Joe Nash]

I know this doesn't help you much since I'm across the sea in the USA but I would never (and have never) bergrudge a wheelchair-bound shooter any accommodation that would allow him or her to carry on with our sport.  Not only that, I would have a serious problem with anyone who would object so.

And if a disabled shooter needed help to get up and over some sort of barrier to the stand I would be proud to give it.

Do you have any sporting shooting grounds that have Raised platforms, that are built "KNOWING" that disabled wheelchair shooters "CANT" get on or access it. Like here in the UK.  WATCH THIS SPACE AS I AM SEEKING LEGAL ADVICE.  

 

[JER2]

Do you have any sporting shooting grounds that have Raised platforms, that are built "KNOWING" that disabled wheelchair shooters "CANT" get on or access it. Like here in the UK.  WATCH THIS SPACE AS I AM SEEKING LEGAL ADVICE.  

Joe, I am no expert in the field of accommodations for the disabled.  I'm just a layman with common sense, but in my opinion very, very, few of the sporting grounds that I have visited in the US are completely accessible to individuals in wheelchairs.

Whether that is done "knowingly" or not, I cannot say.

 

[Rod M]

I'd second AGL, apart from the raised platform down at the bottom of the hill (Stand 13 at present), all stands are easily accessible. The only issue may be that due to the relatively high 'cages' (wooden surrounds) on virtually all stands, certain targets may be a bit more challenging sight-wise.

 

[Nimbusgb]

I am sure any of us would help it’s just that lots of our grounds unfortunately are just impossible to navigate in a wheelchair.  Some shooting stands on platforms whilst you might get the chair in place, the shooter wouldn’t see the targets.  Lots are on natural terrains, field and woods and don’t have man made paths.  It’s a great shame.  I’ve never shot in the US but from what I have seen and heard your grounds are more wheelchair friendly, is that the case?

Would there be any objection to a disabled shooter being able to shoot targets from a slightly more accessible position? Say at the base of a platform. Lets be fair, some of these guys are at a huge disadvantage already, making a few accommodations wouldn't hurt the regular shooters. I'd be far more amenable to waiting a few minutes while a ref changes position or moves something for a bloke in a chair than I am for a bunch of numpties who, having destroyed their cards for the day are more intent on dragging it out for everyone else!  

 

[Joe Nash]

Would there be any objection to a disabled shooter being able to shoot targets from a slightly more accessible position? Say at the base of a platform. Lets be fair, some of these guys are at a huge disadvantage already, making a few accommodations wouldn't hurt the regular shooters. I'd be far more amenable to waiting a few minutes while a ref changes position or moves something for a bloke in a chair than I am for a bunch of numpties who, having destroyed their cards for the day are more intent on dragging it out for everyone else!  

As I am a member of the CPSA, why is it when they decide to offer major sporting shoots to the grounds they don't tell them to set up the shoot for disabled members as well as able bodied members as we all pay the same to enter the shoot it. What upsets me is when it is your turn to shoot the next stand and it turns out to be off a scaffold tower and your second to shoot, the ref tells you to go last because you cant get up the stand and he wont be able to show me the targets and he will let me shoot from the bottom if there is room from the side or in front of the scaffold after the other shooters have finished. I will tell you I feel like a bit of something off the bottom of Someones shoe. 

 

[Sian]

Worlds Stp and prelim for us.  Had to stop prelim at stand 7 I think not well at all, first aid ladies splendid and the EJC chap that took me back.I am pretending today didn’t happen and hopefully start tomorrow afresh if I feel up to going.  Lovely to see you Salopian.

 

[Joe Nash]

Worlds Stp and prelim for us.  Had to stop prelim at stand 7 I think not well at all, first aid ladies splendid and the EJC chap that took me back.I am pretending today didn’t happen and hopefully start tomorrow afresh if I feel up to going.  Lovely to see you Salopian.

Hope you are feeling better Sian, do you think it may have been the Heat. Joe.

 

[Sian]

Hope you are feeling better Sian, do you think it may have been the Heat. Joe.

Thanks.  The heat certainly didn’t help, I had a bad stomach from the day and night before and had no food and although I drank loads  of water it obviously wasn’t enough.  The first aid ladies were great and the chap who took me back.   Better today but this heat does not agree with me at all.

 

[Deershooter]

I have lost both legs and shoot from a mobility scooter .I have shot the British open sporting twice and any stand unaccsessable to the disabled shooter an alternative place has been found . I have also shot Northampton, kegworth,grange farm,and orston all in registered comp any platform stand I have been allowed to shoot from the floor next to it or underneath it .

 

[ehb102]

Do you have any sporting shooting grounds that have Raised platforms, that are built "KNOWING" that disabled wheelchair shooters "CANT" get on or access it. Like here in the UK.  WATCH THIS SPACE AS I AM SEEKING LEGAL ADVICE.  

You know that what they say is that there needs to be "reasonable accommodation". 

 

[Joe Nash]

You know that what they say is that there needs to be "reasonable accommodation". 

This is a good get out for the CPSA, the Championship comps we give to grounds are not checked out for disabled shooters to be able to Enter. As a Member of the CPSA it is up to "YOU" to contact the ground to find out if you will be able to shoot there before you BOOK or Enter in any CPSA comps, as we don't tell the grounds how and what targets to set.      As a Member of the CPSA , is this Discrimination against Disabled Members . What are your views on this. ??? Joe.

 

[ehb102]

This is a good get out for the CPSA, the Championship comps we give to grounds are not checked out for disabled shooters to be able to Enter. As a Member of the CPSA it is up to "YOU" to contact the ground to find out if you will be able to shoot there before you BOOK or Enter in any CPSA comps, as we don't tell the grounds how and what targets to set.      As a Member of the CPSA , is this Discrimination against Disabled Members . What are your views on this. ??? Joe.

Ah, are you sure you want my views, Joe? I'm hardly representative of the membership. I'm a 60% occasional sporting shot who shoots for enjoyment now and I am the Queen of Political Correctness. I think the colour of clays should be regulated because of colour blindness and Irlen Syndrome, but that's because I know about the problems that come with those things.

I think that competition sporting clay shooting should be fully inclusive of seated shooters (that's people with a disability who use a chair or scooter or need to sit down for stability reasons for those who would like clarity on this) as well as being fully inclusive to as many other people as possible. I think this because first, they have a moral obligation to make competition clay shooting this way, as well as a legal requirement under the Equalities Act 2010. Secondly, shooting has to continually prove itself and its value to UK Society. If  you make sure the shooting community is populated with lots of women, lots people with disabilities, and lots people from other minorities then the accusations of it being an elitist sport crumble whilst its support base broadens. If I were in charge of commissioning at the CPSA I would make sure that any competition commissioning specified that all major competitions had to have all stands accessible by a standard wheelchair or mobility scooter to a certain specification. The argument of "reasonable accommodation" would be phased out over five years. I don't accept that grounds who are spending gazillions building earth banks can't make the path a gentle slope rather than a steep upward climb. Ditto platforms. You can argue "cost to business is unreasonable" when you are a teeny ground but not when you are visibly investing large amounts elsewhere. It should be the representative organisation leading on this matter. 

I am not entirely clear on the requirements for "premier ground" versus "premier plus" but I think good paths and the provision of carts is important. I have dear friends who can only shoot in those situations. Who are the CPSA to say they aren't worth bothering about? 

 

[schmokinn]

"Who are the CPSA to say they aren't worth bothering about?"  h34r: i so want to but i can't comment on their ineptitude and lack of ability

 

[Joe Nash]

Ah, are you sure you want my views, Joe? I'm hardly representative of the membership. I'm a 60% occasional sporting shot who shoots for enjoyment now and I am the Queen of Political Correctness. I think the colour of clays should be regulated because of colour blindness and Irlen Syndrome, but that's because I know about the problems that come with those things.

I think that competition sporting clay shooting should be fully inclusive of seated shooters (that's people with a disability who use a chair or scooter or need to sit down for stability reasons for those who would like clarity on this) as well as being fully inclusive to as many other people as possible. I think this because first, they have a moral obligation to make competition clay shooting this way, as well as a legal requirement under the Equalities Act 2010. Secondly, shooting has to continually prove itself and its value to UK Society. If  you make sure the shooting community is populated with lots of women, lots people with disabilities, and lots people from other minorities then the accusations of it being an elitist sport crumble whilst its support base broadens. If I were in charge of commissioning at the CPSA I would make sure that any competition commissioning specified that all major competitions had to have all stands accessible by a standard wheelchair or mobility scooter to a certain specification. The argument of "reasonable accommodation" would be phased out over five years. I don't accept that grounds who are spending gazillions building earth banks can't make the path a gentle slope rather than a steep upward climb. Ditto platforms. You can argue "cost to business is unreasonable" when you are a teeny ground but not when you are visibly investing large amounts elsewhere. It should be the representative organisation leading on this matter. 

I am not entirely clear on the requirements for "premier ground" versus "premier plus" but I think good paths and the provision of carts is important. I have dear friends who can only shoot in those situations. Who are the CPSA to say they aren't worth bothering about? 

I wonder if the grounds that have these raised platform have been inspected by Health & Safety and also have a Safety certificate for them, and what about Insurance and safety certs for those made of wood and scaffold poles, would you be covered if you fell or hurt yourself from these raised platforms with the CPSA. ????????

 

[schmokinn]

I wonder if the grounds that have these raised platform have been inspected by Health & Safety and also have a Safety certificate for them, and what about Insurance and safety certs for those made of wood and scaffold poles, would you be covered if you fell or hurt yourself from these raised platforms with the CPSA. ????????

While i broadly support your cause you seem to be trying to pick even on those that have gone to some effort as well,most grounds don't have a bottomless pit of money.

Easy for trap grounds but not for Sporting,some grounds move stands around,some are set to take advantage of the terrain...should other people be disadvantaged to your advantage?

Maybe you should go at it from the other side and find/find out if funding is available for this i am sure the grounds where possible would quite happily make modifications if there is funding.

At the end of the day there are some grounds that you will never be able to shoot because of there topography making it awkward for able bodied people to get to stands,they assess there own risk getting into/onto platforms/confined spaces and gradients.

None of these things suggest that people are deliberately trying to exclude you and i believe most grounds go to some effort to make large portions of their ground available to disabled shooters.

 

[Joe Nash]

While i broadly support your cause you seem to be trying to pick even on those that have gone to some effort as well,most grounds don't have a bottomless pit of money.

Easy for trap grounds but not for Sporting,some grounds move stands around,some are set to take advantage of the terrain...should other people be disadvantaged to your advantage?

Maybe you should go at it from the other side and find/find out if funding is available for this i am sure the grounds where possible would quite happily make modifications if there is funding.

At the end of the day there are some grounds that you will never be able to shoot because of there topography making it awkward for able bodied people to get to stands,they assess there own risk getting into/onto platforms/confined spaces and gradients.

None of these things suggest that people are deliberately trying to exclude you and i believe most grounds go to some effort to make large portions of their ground available to disabled shooters.

How is funding going to help with raised platforms???. I have a spare wheelchair you are welcome to use, go and book into a Reg CPSA Sporting shoot, and I will pay your entry fee, then you will know what it is like. I bet you will end up saying  F That, before you get half way round. You tell me no one is trying to exclude disabled shooters from sporting shoots, then WHY put Raised platforms up.

 

[schmokinn]

How is funding going to help with raised platforms???. I have a spare wheelchair you are welcome to use, go and book into a Reg CPSA Sporting shoot, and I will pay your entry fee, then you will know what it is like. I bet you will end up saying  F That, before you get half way round. You tell me no one is trying to exclude disabled shooters from sporting shoots, then WHY put Raised platforms up.

Funding would help with raised platforms by paying for the cost of "certificated and safe" ramps to allow you access which is something you were complaining about it may also allow a modification of the shooting position and other infrastructure to suit you more.

Groundworks,metalworking and even wooden structures cost money plus time and effort to complete plus "certification for safety" and in some cases may even involve planning permission....some shoots would simply close under the financial weight.

Again many grounds just cannot practically make themselves fully wheelchair accessible,not because they do not want to but because it would be physically impossible.

I do not need to borrow a chair to see the challenges involved,i have shot with a local lad who comes to our club who is confined to a chair he has a large wheeled trike style and gets everywhere ...barring platforms which would be impractical for a small club on a site where stand position is changed every shoot.

I think he sees it as a challenge,enjoys it immensely and has never been seen to complain...i guess because he doesn't think it is everybody elses fault that the world wasn't designed for him and is happy that people make there best effort for him.

So you are demanding that all shoots including greenfield sites should have full access,well that,s the Worlds,Beretta gone then and many other big shoots...i can think of one shoot that is registered its on a farm with massively steep slopes and no fixed shooting positions from shoot to shoot...should they be forced to close causing a loss of facilities to the whole shooting community.

And i will repeat i do not believe anyone is deliberately trying to exclude you though you obviously believe that everyone is.

So lets ban any shoots on greenfield sites,any shoots that are on uneven terrain,any shoots that don't suit you basically...nevermind that they may have been there years as small locally run enterprises and would make there best effort for you to enjoy your experience there even though they may not be "suitable",sporting shooting has become far more accessible than it was but still not good enough for you

The nature of sporting shooting in general is that it is in the countryside and the countryside is rough,uneven,hard to access...it seems your suggesting that everything should be shot from flat concrete pads with perfect access over permanent paths with no real variation in topography?

Might as well take up Trap shooting then? Never going to happen and i think i would probably give up shooting if sporting was forced to be the same.

People should make their best effort to accommodate you where practical and safety is not a concern.

You talk about legal action to enforce your will,guess we can kiss sporting shooting as we know it goodbye then if you get your way.

 

[Joe Nash]

While i broadly support your cause you seem to be trying to pick even on those that have gone to some effort as well,most grounds don't have a bottomless pit of money.

Easy for trap grounds but not for Sporting,some grounds move stands around,some are set to take advantage of the terrain...should other people be disadvantaged to your advantage? 

Maybe you should go at it from the other side and find/find out if funding is available for this i am sure the grounds where possible would quite happily make modifications if there is funding.

At the end of the day there are some grounds that you will never be able to shoot because of there topography making it awkward for able bodied people to get to stands,they assess there own risk getting into/onto platforms/confined spaces and gradients.

None of these things suggest that people are deliberately trying to exclude you and i believe most grounds go to some effort to make large portions of their ground available to disabled shooters.

"Should  other people be disadvantaged to your advantage".  Can you explain what you mean with this comment schmokinn. ??   Don't you mean "my disadvantage" how could disabled shooters have an advantage over able bodied people??