Coaching during a competition

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calamity said:
Don't get me started! I agree with Emma's earlier post - and I must say its usually the refs trying to be helpful when they see a woman shooting. Only, very recently, shot with a guy who was missing the same target over and over. I followed him, shot at and missed the same target. Immediately the ref told me I was in front ( which I knew anyway), I then hit the target. It's not fair that refs do this as the guy I was with was also a B class shooter and he wasn't given any advice! He felt it was because I was a woman I received preferential treatment! but I'm sure that the female refs do the same for male shooters :wink:
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Yeah I get told advice all the time by the female Refs! Not! Just not using enough charm. :)

It's a tricky one, if your card is strong then the Ref can see that you might get a place but on the flip side it would be obvious to a Ref if your card is filled with zeros and a little help isn't gonna make much difference. I know when I first started shooting at Steve's grounds with scores under 50% the Refs and fellow shooters were all very helpful. It certainly made me feel a little less worried about shooting when I first started.

 
No, no coaching whilst on the line whether they be newbies or experienced. The practice line is the time for tips and trying new ideas.

As others have rightly said, rules are rules. If you don't like it don't shoot registered events.

 
Jason Mclean said:
Yeah I get told advice all the time by the female Refs! Not! Just not using enough charm. :)

It's a tricky one, if your card is strong then the Ref can see that you might get a place but on the flip side it would be obvious to a Ref if your card is filled with zeros and a little help isn't gonna make much difference. I know when I first started shooting at Steve's grounds with scores under 50% the Refs and fellow shooters were all very helpful. It certainly made me feel a little less worried about shooting when I first started.
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Spot on.....

 
I have a slightly different outlook on this one,, as I shot in the past predominantly FSP , and at a range of levels, from informal, club, to provincial shoots, national and international shoots for last 15 years, albeit in south Africa, every- one was well mannered, courteous, helpful, but very serious about the sport. as the ability,(and costs!) rise with ability and age   so do expectations,,,, that  distractions are minimal, be it a faulty machine or a distracting influence in the form of a newby in your squad. We are ALL striving to generate/maintain interest in shooting,, in any form, not just clays,, however, there is a time and place for everything, I am the first to help out on coaching etc,,, (must say as well,, that safety is a big priority for me)

don't get me wrong , but as has been said, rules are there for a reason,, make sure you know those rules,,in line with common sense, and manners,which are skills missing with some at times.

 
jwpzx9r said:
I find it odd that people openly proclaim themselves as willing cheats! It is not about the referee's imposing discipline it is about self discipline ... abiding by the rules self regulating and thinking about what action you should take. Golf is a fantastic example of how people should conduct themselves with regard to abiding by the laws of the sport. If even one blade of grass is moved that should not have been a pro golfer will self penalise an woe betide those who do not and are caught CHEATING, the are shunned by their fellow pro golfers ! The same should be adopted by shooters they should know not to cheat.
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It is not cheating to help someone that is not in the prize fund.

Who are you calling a cheat....very strong words....the youngster or the newbie?

 
274368 said:
No, no coaching whilst on the line whether they be newbies or experienced. The practice line is the time for tips and trying new ideas.

As others have rightly said, rules are rules. If you don't like it don't shoot registered events.
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I'm not arguing with that, as I believe rules are rules. (I have to say that theymay need bending if somebody is dying on their arse..). I think the difference in trap is that a round is the same in practice or comp (mental anguish aside), whereas it is often the case in sporting that you can only get a really decent round of ESP at a reg shoot, so it becomes the practice. Full circle to the argument on a thread a while back about 'should CPSA members be allowed to shoot it as practice when they want'?

 
Yes if you want to be really hardcore.....take away birds only.

 
chippy said:
After reading 7 pages of how ABT is not as good as it was.I now know why i'am a sporting shooter.
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And still no trappies forthcoming for the 'get your arse kicked by Hedge-Monkies' challenge that Ed so thoughtfully devised. The little tinker..

 
I said I am in....but we need HELICE in the mix to make it fair...

 
Tinker bell said:
It is not cheating to help someone that is not in the prize fund.

Who are you calling a cheat....very strong words....the youngster or the newbie?
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I did not make the rules that exist but by those rules anybody being coached while taking part in a CPSA registered sporting event is cheating. I don't apologise for the choice of wording what else can you call breaking the code and laws of the game. To put it in perspective from the point of view of the wording. When a football player is penalised for fouling another player during the course of a game it is done so because he is cheating and like wise a rugby player doing the same thing is penalised because he is cheating. The fact that these occurrences are common place does not alter that fact. Whether a shooter is new to the game or an internationalist it does not matter the fact remains it is cheating. Now whether you want to categorise the level that an infringement of the laws of a game required to call it cheating that's up to you to me I call any breaking of the rules of a game cheating... you can call it what you want it is a free world :)

 
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Seven pages of debate.

Rules are rules and they are written down to be adhered to.

Birds only or a competitor who is obviously out of their depth I have no problem at all discreetly advising or assisting to improve or enjoy their day, discretion should be the deciding factor. We do need to encourage novices to enjoy their sport.

But my  complaint was aimed at people who should and do know better , but decide to 'bend ' the rules to meet their own ends.

Coaching is for private training, not during a competition.

I admire Wylie's stance , it is the same as mine.

 If you step into the cage you should be left to your own devices , NOT have your coach on your shoulder saying "up a bit, left a bit" or whatever.

Last year I had a Colt, a very good shot coached by his father through a competition, it came to my attention, so I stopped the stand and spoke with the father and told him to stop. He then threatened me with physical violence.  Fortunately I was in a particularly good mood and a local competitor took the gentleman to one side and advised him of the error of his ways. 

So in conclusion can we agree that advice outside the stand or after you have shot is perfectly reasonable, coaching in the stand or on the line is against the rules and not acceptable?

 
Salopian said:
Seven pages of debate.

Rules are rules and they are written down to be adhered to.

Birds only or a competitor who is obviously out of their depth I have no problem at all discreetly advising or assisting to improve or enjoy their day, discretion should be the deciding factor. We do need to encourage novices to enjoy their sport.

But my  complaint was aimed at people who should and do know better , but decide to 'bend ' the rules to meet their own ends.

Coaching is for private training, not during a competition.

I admire Wylie's stance , it is the same as mine.

 If you step into the cage you should be left to your own devices , NOT have your coach on your shoulder saying "up a bit, left a bit" or whatever.

Last year I had a Colt, a very good shot coached by his father through a competition, it came to my attention, so I stopped the stand and spoke with the father and told him to stop. He then threatened me with physical violence.  Fortunately I was in a particularly good mood and a local competitor took the gentleman to one side and advised him of the error of his ways. 

So in conclusion can we agree that advice outside the stand or after you have shot is perfectly reasonable, coaching in the stand or on the line is against the rules and not acceptable?
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You should have reported him to the police anyone threatening violence should not have a shotgun license.

 
all i can say on this matter is regarding reffs you pay peanuts what do you get ----------

 
just wondering but how many (ESP) shooters on here can honestly say they NEVER had any form of advicetips'coaching (outside the cage or pointers from the scorer)' when they first starting shooting reg comps?........

 
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The way the rule is worded at the moment it allows coaching when the shooter is away from the stand in sporting. Obviously with trap, sportrap skeet disciplines etc. once the round of 25 has started you are scuppered.

The problem with bending the rules for a complete novice even if it is probably the right thing to do is if the father of the colt is stood behind when it happens.

Then if the ref tried to enforce the rule on the colt the father definitely has the upper hand in the ensuing debate. The ref cannot say with any credibility that it is ok to help or let help be given to that shooter and not the colt.

 
"Nice assumption. Let me enlighten you"

Nice of you, even if unnecessary, to pitch in but your comments are not enlightening in the slightest. In the scenario you described I would have fully expected Ian to respond in the way he did, and quite rightly so.

But that is a long way from saying that shooters who have not achieved a certain skill level should not shoot registered comps - THAT IS ELITIST - and very disappointing.

A CPSA Registered Comp is, and should be, open to anybody who is a CPSA Member, irrespective of their skill level, and providing they do not hinder a squad and they act safely and responsibly, people who are obviously closer to the bottom of the skill pile should be encouraged. I have no problem with rules, especially for myself, but on the odd occasion that I have admitted to tipping a word to my wife in her admirable efforts to reach a score, usually sub 40, then guess what? . . . . . . . . I don't feel guilty about it, especially when I see the joy on her face when she does finally hit a target she has struggled badly with. I don't believe any sensible ground owner would rather not have her £35 in his pocket.

 
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