In Golf, a multi-million £pound sport where a winner can be comfortable for life by winning one tournament , they have a strict code of conduct , where each competitor obeys the rules without question. Snooker , where the best players earn millions, and they will call a foul on themselves, even if the referee doesn't see it, why can they self govern, when Clayshooting, which is a hobby where a multiple times World Champion cannot actually earn a living, allows cheating to be covered up, go unpunished, or be brushed away.When are we going to stand by our conscience and stamp out this practice which is depriving competitors of places, and prizes?
World ICTSF English Sporting in Canada
- Thread starter BenW
- Start date
Help Support :
Totally and absolutely agree, only difference is the other sports are professional, clay shooting is an amateur sport with only one true professional (in the true sense of professional) and that is GD. Attempts were made in the past to make it more professional BUT arguments against that from grass roots always prevailed. It is one of the reasons sponsorship is so difficult to obtain, most large sponsors only want to see the 'professionals' compete especially at finals and shoot offs and are simply not interested in Johnny Nobody shooting, sad but true. Of course the other reason is being clearly stated in another thread....
hnachaj
Well-known member
- Joined
- Aug 30, 2011
- Messages
- 396
This while from a few years ago pretty well sums it all up:
Dear Sir
Without prejudice and compromise
My first International event was in 1987 at the EEC Championships at Nevremont in Belgium. I attended as a raw 23 year old and was introduced to what I now consider to be "The Formula One" of Clay Pigeon Shooting.
It was a sport competed in and represented by "gentlemen", and coming from a background of other sport, which had always been played in a fair and decent way, I was proud and honoured to be associated with it. Twenty years on, a lot of water has passed under the bridge and "our sport" is no longer what it was. Years ago you could walk up to someone that had won an event and congratulate them, knowing they had won it fair and square. This is, unfortunately, not the case these days.
The sport has turned, in my view, onto the verge of meltdown. Decisions are questioned, club house talk is no longer of "who has shot what", but is now of "who has claimed this or that". This to me is not what we do it for, or sport.
In my view the few people that undermine the rules, and it is just a few both domestically and internationally, stand to ruin the Sport of Gentlemen for us all.
Unless we, as a sport, begin to look at ourselves, and police the sport ourselves, it will not be there for our future generations to enjoy as we have done. The route of the problem I believe stems from lack of respect and aggression towards the referees.
For a chosen few, claiming targets to be hit that were lost, targets that are missed to be argued as "no targets", and general bullying of referees condemns the sport to be that of soccer, where every decision is questioned and referees abused as a matter of course.
Who would be a referee? They do it for the love of the sport, get paid minimal amounts, and the end result for them is abuse and bullying from a few shooters, which in turn leads to a defensive strategy for all the remaining shooters. Decisions are then made by the referees, which are not necessarily correct or fair, and who can blame them?
I appreciate that the problem is not just for international events, and that the problem rears it's ugly head, both at County, Regional and Domestic levels. Wherever I travel to compete in the World, the story is the same. What has finally bought it home to me was in an event earlier this year in America. I was on a squad , where for the first time you could actually say there was a lot of money at stake in the event. The shooter (Rick Mein) called for a target, and his gun then malfunctioned. After checking with the referee, he shot the target again, and killed it. On walking to the next peg, and checking his gun, he realised it was a safety catch issue, and not a malfunction as previously thought. He was very much in the hunt to win the event. On realising what had happened, he walked straight back to the referee and asked for the target to be deducted from his score card. THIS USED TO HAPPEN. It is called HONESTY. I am sure 99% of all the people that shoot would do the same. Sadly, there are a few that do not play by the rules, and this is the problem in our sport that we need to eradicate.
I firmly believe that if we are to crack down on the dishonest members of out community, then we must come up with a new rule to hopefully eradicate this problem. When shooting UIT disciplines, there is no aggressive responses from the shooters towards the referee. I believe, if we are going to get fairness back into our sport, we have to give protection to the referees. I would therefore propose the following:-
In International events the procedure for a dispute should be silent, with the shooter raising their hand to claim a dispute. The squad then stops, and the referee can conduct a civilised enquiry as to the problem. If necessary, he can then consult the rest of the squad. Shouting or aggressive behaviour would result in the target being called "lost" immediately. If the shouting and aggressive behaviour continues by the shooter, further targets would be lost as a result of their actions, after warnings by the referee. This behaviour would then be reported to the jury. Mandatory. Where upon the shooter would receive an official warning. If they re-offend, the same would apply, but this time they would get a final warning, and a third offence would lead to a two year disqualification.
If we are going to continue to grow as a sport, and become as professional as the other sports that surround us, we must act.
I have written this from my position as European FITASC Champion, and not from a position that would involve sour grapes. It is also from the heart. The sport has given me many, many pleasurable moments, as it will do to countless others in the future, provided we clean up our act and go forward together.
Yours faithfully
George Digweed
It is no longer a gentleman's sport!
Henry
Dear Sir
Without prejudice and compromise
My first International event was in 1987 at the EEC Championships at Nevremont in Belgium. I attended as a raw 23 year old and was introduced to what I now consider to be "The Formula One" of Clay Pigeon Shooting.
It was a sport competed in and represented by "gentlemen", and coming from a background of other sport, which had always been played in a fair and decent way, I was proud and honoured to be associated with it. Twenty years on, a lot of water has passed under the bridge and "our sport" is no longer what it was. Years ago you could walk up to someone that had won an event and congratulate them, knowing they had won it fair and square. This is, unfortunately, not the case these days.
The sport has turned, in my view, onto the verge of meltdown. Decisions are questioned, club house talk is no longer of "who has shot what", but is now of "who has claimed this or that". This to me is not what we do it for, or sport.
In my view the few people that undermine the rules, and it is just a few both domestically and internationally, stand to ruin the Sport of Gentlemen for us all.
Unless we, as a sport, begin to look at ourselves, and police the sport ourselves, it will not be there for our future generations to enjoy as we have done. The route of the problem I believe stems from lack of respect and aggression towards the referees.
For a chosen few, claiming targets to be hit that were lost, targets that are missed to be argued as "no targets", and general bullying of referees condemns the sport to be that of soccer, where every decision is questioned and referees abused as a matter of course.
Who would be a referee? They do it for the love of the sport, get paid minimal amounts, and the end result for them is abuse and bullying from a few shooters, which in turn leads to a defensive strategy for all the remaining shooters. Decisions are then made by the referees, which are not necessarily correct or fair, and who can blame them?
I appreciate that the problem is not just for international events, and that the problem rears it's ugly head, both at County, Regional and Domestic levels. Wherever I travel to compete in the World, the story is the same. What has finally bought it home to me was in an event earlier this year in America. I was on a squad , where for the first time you could actually say there was a lot of money at stake in the event. The shooter (Rick Mein) called for a target, and his gun then malfunctioned. After checking with the referee, he shot the target again, and killed it. On walking to the next peg, and checking his gun, he realised it was a safety catch issue, and not a malfunction as previously thought. He was very much in the hunt to win the event. On realising what had happened, he walked straight back to the referee and asked for the target to be deducted from his score card. THIS USED TO HAPPEN. It is called HONESTY. I am sure 99% of all the people that shoot would do the same. Sadly, there are a few that do not play by the rules, and this is the problem in our sport that we need to eradicate.
I firmly believe that if we are to crack down on the dishonest members of out community, then we must come up with a new rule to hopefully eradicate this problem. When shooting UIT disciplines, there is no aggressive responses from the shooters towards the referee. I believe, if we are going to get fairness back into our sport, we have to give protection to the referees. I would therefore propose the following:-
In International events the procedure for a dispute should be silent, with the shooter raising their hand to claim a dispute. The squad then stops, and the referee can conduct a civilised enquiry as to the problem. If necessary, he can then consult the rest of the squad. Shouting or aggressive behaviour would result in the target being called "lost" immediately. If the shouting and aggressive behaviour continues by the shooter, further targets would be lost as a result of their actions, after warnings by the referee. This behaviour would then be reported to the jury. Mandatory. Where upon the shooter would receive an official warning. If they re-offend, the same would apply, but this time they would get a final warning, and a third offence would lead to a two year disqualification.
If we are going to continue to grow as a sport, and become as professional as the other sports that surround us, we must act.
I have written this from my position as European FITASC Champion, and not from a position that would involve sour grapes. It is also from the heart. The sport has given me many, many pleasurable moments, as it will do to countless others in the future, provided we clean up our act and go forward together.
Yours faithfully
George Digweed
It is no longer a gentleman's sport!
Henry
P
** Pending Removal **
Guest
Yes Henry.....I remember the open letter from George to Fitasc.......
I also know Rick very well....he is a dear friend that I shoot with every year ....... He is absolutely one of the honest gentlemen of the sport and a great shot of many disciplines including 2 of mine (Helice and Pigeon) ......he has won thousands and thousands.....but only by skill of the shot.
He is a great guy full of life......here he is....
I also know Rick very well....he is a dear friend that I shoot with every year ....... He is absolutely one of the honest gentlemen of the sport and a great shot of many disciplines including 2 of mine (Helice and Pigeon) ......he has won thousands and thousands.....but only by skill of the shot.
He is a great guy full of life......here he is....
COUGH.....This while from a few years ago pretty well sums it all upear Sir
Without prejudice and compromise
My first International event was in 1987 at the EEC Championships at Nevremont in Belgium. I attended as a raw 23 year old and was introduced to what I now consider to be "The Formula One" of Clay Pigeon Shooting.
It was a sport competed in and represented by "gentlemen", and coming from a background of other sport, which had always been played in a fair and decent way, I was proud and honoured to be associated with it. Twenty years on, a lot of water has passed under the bridge and "our sport" is no longer what it was. Years ago you could walk up to someone that had won an event and congratulate them, knowing they had won it fair and square. This is, unfortunately, not the case these days.The sport has turned, in my view, onto the verge of meltdown. Decisions are questioned, club house talk is no longer of "who has shot what", but is now of "who has claimed this or that". This to me is not what we do it for, or sport.
In my view the few people that undermine the rules, and it is just a few both domestically and internationally, stand to ruin the Sport of Gentlemen for us all.Unless we, as a sport, begin to look at ourselves, and police the sport ourselves, it will not be there for our future generations to enjoy as we have done. The route of the problem I believe stems from lack of respect and aggression towards the referees.For a chosen few, claiming targets to be hit that were lost, targets that are missed to be argued as "no targets", and general bullying of referees condemns the sport to be that of soccer, where every decision is questioned and referees abused as a matter of course.Who would be a referee? They do it for the love of the sport, get paid minimal amounts, and the end result for them is abuse and bullying from a few shooters, which in turn leads to a defensive strategy for all the remaining shooters. Decisions are then made by the referees, which are not necessarily correct or fair, and who can blame them?
I appreciate that the problem is not just for international events, and that the problem rears it's ugly head, both at County, Regional and Domestic levels. Wherever I travel to compete in the World, the story is the same. What has finally bought it home to me was in an event earlier this year in America. I was on a squad , where for the first time you could actually say there was a lot of money at stake in the event. The shooter (Rick Mein) called for a target, and his gun then malfunctioned. After checking with the referee, he shot the target again, and killed it. On walking to the next peg, and checking his gun, he realised it was a safety catch issue, and not a malfunction as previously thought. He was very much in the hunt to win the event. On realising what had happened, he walked straight back to the referee and asked for the target to be deducted from his score card. THIS USED TO HAPPEN. It is called HONESTY. I am sure 99% of all the people that shoot would do the same. Sadly, there are a few that do not play by the rules, and this is the problem in our sport that we need to eradicate.I firmly believe that if we are to crack down on the dishonest members of out community, then we must come up with a new rule to hopefully eradicate this problem. When shooting UIT disciplines, there is no aggressive responses from the shooters towards the referee. I believe, if we are going to get fairness back into our sport, we have to give protection to the referees. I would therefore propose the following:-
In International events the procedure for a dispute should be silent, with the shooter raising their hand to claim a dispute. The squad then stops, and the referee can conduct a civilised enquiry as to the problem. If necessary, he can then consult the rest of the squad. Shouting or aggressive behaviour would result in the target being called "lost" immediately. If the shouting and aggressive behaviour continues by the shooter, further targets would be lost as a result of their actions, after warnings by the referee. This behaviour would then be reported to the jury. Mandatory. Where upon the shooter would receive an official warning. If they re-offend, the same would apply, but this time they would get a final warning, and a third offence would lead to a two year disqualification.
If we are going to continue to grow as a sport, and become as professional as the other sports that surround us, we must act.
I have written this from my position as European FITASC Champion, and not from a position that would involve sour grapes. It is also from the heart. The sport has given me many, many pleasurable moments, as it will do to countless others in the future, provided we clean up our act and go forward together.
Yours faithfully
George Digweed
It is no longer a gentleman's sport!
Henry
Don't understand Richard. do you agree or not. I ref fitasc and sporting, and yes refs decsions are being challenged, specially when a group of mates shoot together. I'm strong enough to tell them to stop their arguments, however lots of younger reffs are not.
We know who the cheaters are and they should be managed OUT of the sport.
We know who the cheaters are and they should be managed OUT of the sport.
sarachambers
Well-known member
- Joined
- Sep 15, 2011
- Messages
- 194
I was most perplexed by the "without prejudice and compromise" bit.
My assumption was that perhaps Richard was alluding to the fact that he thought the author of the letter may not be whiter than white concerning some of the practices detailed. But I don't want to speak for someone else, it was just the impression the post gave me.
Steve Lovatt
Well-known member
Can I just say If everybody plays by the " rules " all the time and everyone on here want everything done by the rule book why is it I hear a lot of questioning refs decisions when I am out and about but when they are given a target ( which everyone gets sometime ) they never say no I didn't hit that !!!!!
And the one rule which is always being broken is " can I see a pair " I've only stood here 20 mins and seen 100 " when answer is no , then watch all the upside down faces
Point I am making is not everyone is as good a sportsman as they might think they are
Just a thought
Just adding onto Richards note I had to cough and clear my throat as well
And the one rule which is always being broken is " can I see a pair " I've only stood here 20 mins and seen 100 " when answer is no , then watch all the upside down faces
Point I am making is not everyone is as good a sportsman as they might think they are
Just a thought
Just adding onto Richards note I had to cough and clear my throat as well
Last edited by a moderator:
I think this is all a real shame, for most of us this is just a hobby, we are unlikely to be good enough to win major events.
I am disappointed that the sport has become a political mine field, I get enough of that at work.
The envy of shooters of other shooters is poor and should have been left in the playground.
I think the days of shouting and arguing with refs has to be put to bed, argue and shout lose a target, keep going lose the stand, after all this is not football!
I find all refs very willing to listen, if you have missed a target you know you have. Winning by cheating, the only person who will judge you is yourself and if you are comfortable with that then perhaps you should book an appointment with a shrink to deal with your personality flaw.
This hobby is supposed to be fun and enjoyable, but reading the posts it appears far from it.
Attending some of the major competitions what other hobby can you do that in, being in a squad with world champions and marvelling at their skill, is that where the enjoyment is, breaking that 60 yard crosser....beating a high class shooter, the fun is on achieving your own goals.
Shooting has a poor press, and it is becoming elitest due to the costs, if we all played like ladies and gentleman wouldn't life be easier
I am disappointed that the sport has become a political mine field, I get enough of that at work.
The envy of shooters of other shooters is poor and should have been left in the playground.
I think the days of shouting and arguing with refs has to be put to bed, argue and shout lose a target, keep going lose the stand, after all this is not football!
I find all refs very willing to listen, if you have missed a target you know you have. Winning by cheating, the only person who will judge you is yourself and if you are comfortable with that then perhaps you should book an appointment with a shrink to deal with your personality flaw.
This hobby is supposed to be fun and enjoyable, but reading the posts it appears far from it.
Attending some of the major competitions what other hobby can you do that in, being in a squad with world champions and marvelling at their skill, is that where the enjoyment is, breaking that 60 yard crosser....beating a high class shooter, the fun is on achieving your own goals.
Shooting has a poor press, and it is becoming elitest due to the costs, if we all played like ladies and gentleman wouldn't life be easier
Steve Lovatt
Well-known member
Well done K80 TCG
K80, totally agree, maybe its time the CPSA tells refs to clamp down on being bullied by shooters. I have on one occasion had cause to berate a scorer (not a ref), who scored a stand in a registered shoot and did not even bother to watch whether the shooter actually hit or missed a target, he just put down what he felt like!
Coughing at GD's letter is quite funny, I have seen all the current top 10 in the Country at some point, either gain a target or given the opportunity to shoot a target again for "dubious or questionable" reasons. Now some of them will say what they asked for is in the current rules and the difference is they know how to apply those rules when they need them, make of that as you will.
BUT, I can say I have ever seen those same shooters aggressively bullying ref's, but I have seen it abroad, in the end the ref simply capitulated after the shooter refused to leave the hoop, point blank. I would question why the jury were not called or why a each major can't have an individual who is called on to make a final decision when a shooter and ref are having a disagreement. Nothing to stop other shooters backing up a ref if they know the shooter is 'at it' IMO
Coughing at GD's letter is quite funny, I have seen all the current top 10 in the Country at some point, either gain a target or given the opportunity to shoot a target again for "dubious or questionable" reasons. Now some of them will say what they asked for is in the current rules and the difference is they know how to apply those rules when they need them, make of that as you will.
BUT, I can say I have ever seen those same shooters aggressively bullying ref's, but I have seen it abroad, in the end the ref simply capitulated after the shooter refused to leave the hoop, point blank. I would question why the jury were not called or why a each major can't have an individual who is called on to make a final decision when a shooter and ref are having a disagreement. Nothing to stop other shooters backing up a ref if they know the shooter is 'at it' IMO
P
** Pending Removal **
Guest
I am not taking any sides here. I want to be clear as to my current position.........but I think the open letter to Fitasc that George did some years ago......was excellent.
It pointed out a problem that many refs see each time they attend a shoot to do a job.
The letter talked about this growing problem in general terms.
Abuse of refs by 'any' age group is not acceptable and is definitely NOT wanted in our sport.
Just my honest opinion.....for what it is worth.
And I still say 'well said George'.......it needed saying.
In these modern days we should be able to have a system where scores are recorded easily by the ref. For instance....if cards are carried by the shooter...the ref could punch a hole in the card for a zero (this has been used abroad in my discipline successfully ).
Also target limits could be used....where targets have to be shot by a set point thus eliminating the shooting of targets late ......near the ground of just before disappearing into bushes, trees etc....thus they are scored whilst in clear view of the ref. I also think that in major competition 'composed squads' should not be allowed. The squads should be a random draw.
Again .....just my honest opinion.
Last edited:
Steve Lovatt
Well-known member
Thought all fitasc sporting was random draws for squads Nicola !!!!
Good letter but lot of water has flowed , clays thrown , disputes occurred since then .... Just saying
Good letter but lot of water has flowed , clays thrown , disputes occurred since then .... Just saying
P
** Pending Removal **
Guest
I have been out of it since 2005 as i said....and at that time....No not all Fitasc Sporting were random....even though they were supposed to be.
It was not just a good letter.....it was "an excellent letter" ......and as a ground owner and course setter I would expect that you would also have had the identical same wishes for your refs.....in fact I know you do.....so I am not really sure what point you are making....I am lost by part of your post.
The water flowing bit ....can you possibly explain more clearly as I do not quite understand what you are trying to say?
In my own honest opinion I think that the letter written by George is still spot on even today. We have already had countless threads on here about treatment of refs during competitions.....or treatment of young markers at registered shoots.....what people have seen.....shooters trying to pull points when they think they can get away with it.
I hate bullying of refs.....and cheats of any kind......it is not acceptable. This used to be a gentlemanly sport.......sadly not now.
I stopped shooting sporting because of the various types of unacceptable behaviour......which was not attractive......and yes is the answer before some one asks.......I did tip in if I saw any of that behaviour, and sorted the f***ers out.....whether they liked it or not .......and would do it now....if I saw it.
Both Richard Faulds and George Digweed are very special people who have done amazing things for our sport. They are the ideal people to comment at Federation level ...should they wish to. They are way out front in a class of there own.....and have always been great ambassadors of the sport.
Now 'that' peeps.................'is'......a true story...!!
Last edited:
Hotshot100
Well-known member
Here is another true story. At the North of England selection shoot held at Coniston one of the people that I was shooting with was scored a straight on the second stand even though he had missed a target. On collecting his card he noticed what had happened and asked the rest of us what we thought he had shot on the stand to which we all replied 7x8. He then went back to the stand and told the referee who altered his score accordingly.
On the next stand the referee asked me if I had hit a target, I thought that I had missed but as there is always a chance that I hadn't noticed a chip, I asked the rest of the squad who confirmed it as a miss.
Unfortunately on the last stand it worked the other way round when one of our group who was shooting his first registered shoot straighted his last stand but was only scored 7x8. This was probably the only stand where the ref wasn't calling the misses.
So there are some honest people still out there.
On the next stand the referee asked me if I had hit a target, I thought that I had missed but as there is always a chance that I hadn't noticed a chip, I asked the rest of the squad who confirmed it as a miss.
Unfortunately on the last stand it worked the other way round when one of our group who was shooting his first registered shoot straighted his last stand but was only scored 7x8. This was probably the only stand where the ref wasn't calling the misses.
So there are some honest people still out there.
Definitely becoming a rare occurrence unfortunately. So when are we going to get the full SP on what happened in Canada? I can probably guess the protagonists involved, just would be interesting to hear what the alleged offence was, or what he did that warranted it to be reported and consequently what the ruling was and why. :biggrin:
To be clear - the incident in Canada is nothing to do with George Digweed - I've been pinged a couple of times to ensure that this is clear.
The open letter that George sent is not specifically related to the issue in Canada - but was a general comment.
Once again - I'll make my usual reminder:
If you are going to talk about cheating - please do not make references to any individuals - I do not want ShootClay to be involved in any disputes about cheating or name-calling. No-one likes cheating, and I don't - but I also don't want to have to spend hours replying to angry emails from people that feel they have been slighted.
I'm not close enough to the sport to know the details of accusations in the wild, proven or unproven - and frankly, I couldn't give a monkeys - I don't have time to be involved in the gossip around something which is a cancer to any sport.
If you do - I'll have to remove your posts - sorry, but thats the way it needs to be to protect my site.
The open letter that George sent is not specifically related to the issue in Canada - but was a general comment.
Once again - I'll make my usual reminder:
If you are going to talk about cheating - please do not make references to any individuals - I do not want ShootClay to be involved in any disputes about cheating or name-calling. No-one likes cheating, and I don't - but I also don't want to have to spend hours replying to angry emails from people that feel they have been slighted.
I'm not close enough to the sport to know the details of accusations in the wild, proven or unproven - and frankly, I couldn't give a monkeys - I don't have time to be involved in the gossip around something which is a cancer to any sport.
If you do - I'll have to remove your posts - sorry, but thats the way it needs to be to protect my site.
