open chokes

[Bryn12]

 so a 'string' doesn't exist maybe I shouldn't have been so lazy calling it a string but rather a cluster

 

[jwpzx9r]

Bryn well done no cabbage!

I am not going to mention any non functional entities... I hope anyway... but I remember from a previous debate about how one could tell where they were shooting and someone said that never take the direction wad as an indication of where you are in fact shooting. While I would not say that it is the best indicator... obviously a broken target is best, I have been paying quite close inspection of targets breaking when marking at universal trap never ceases to amaze me how many times the wad is almost the thing breaking the target on the left/right type targets ! Not always consistent though I think it very much depends on the brand of cartridge. Some of the wads fly open others remain closed, these ones are quite a good indicator of where you are shooting ... just my observation feel free to flame and/or disagree . What got me thinking there was how the wad was in front of a lot of the shot in that clip.

 

[timps]

Unfortunately that video is of a xm1028 tank shell and not a 12 bore shotgun. You can actually see the tank in the second part of the video if you look below the muzzle.

This link has some comments on it


Shooting H5 with that and there would be nothing left of the High house let alone the clay

 

[Bryn12]

thanks timps I didn't see the word 'tank'  but I know I've seen slowmo of 12g shot somewhere, probably best to call them clouds or swarms. Shotgun carts are basically scaled down grape/canister shot anyway so I'd expect it to behave in a similar fashion. How on earth do some of us still miss  :scratchhead:  I'd quite happily have taken a tank shell to that high house after it went on strike.

I find it incredible that some seem to be able to see the shot flight, though I used to be able to see .22 bullets in flight in the right conditions so maybe it's the same kind of thing.


interesting

 

[Santa2512]

Havn't got a clue what in the end of the Beretta

I point and shoot  hit  & miss.   

Ive enough to  think about at the blunty end, to worry about what the pointy end is doing

:santa:

 

[timps]

thanks timps I didn't see the word 'tank'  but I know I've seen slowmo of 12g shot somewhere, probably best to call them clouds or swarms. Shotgun carts are basically scaled down grape/canister shot anyway so I'd expect it to behave in a similar fashion. How on earth do some of us still miss  :scratchhead:  I'd quite happily have taken a tank shell to that high house after it went on strike.

I find it incredible that some seem to be able to see the shot flight, though I used to be able to see .22 bullets in flight in the right conditions so maybe it's the same kind of thing.

interesting

  I get where you are coming at with the clump or cloud wording, the problem was with the word string as some insist  this string is a ridiculously long length which can then miraculously smash clays no matter how far in front of the clay you are which then causes the debate.

The trouble with the grape canister video  is that it leaves the muzzle as one solid mass contained in a shell, this shell then usually uses some type of bursting charge to open the canister and spread the shot some distance from the muzzle.

Obviously the shot from a shotgun is completely free if fibre so as soon as it leaves the muzzle the shot is no longer one mass, or if plastic wad pretty much as soon as it leaves the muzzle.  

The wad is the main issue between the two videos, on the shell it is a large heavy mass (base of a canister capable of being fired out of a tank) which goes through the shot cloud, on a shotgun its either light fibre or plastic with a large surface area which is designed not to go through the shot cloud otherwise it blows the pattern.

But I understand what you were trying to show.

As regards people seeing them, I have my opinions on that, but my mum always said if you don't have anything nice to say about someone then don’t say it.

But I bet most who claim they can see it also claim they can see it 99% of the time rather than once in a blue moon when the wind is blowing in the right direction.  As you can see from the 2nd video at skeet range there is not much time or distance for the pattern to spread meaning if you centred it, it breaks. Also  if the pattern spreads enough for a clay to slip through then how are you ever going to see individual 7.5 shot spread that far apart not in a dense cloud?

 

[RobertBeard]

I suspect that most people look down the barrels from behind the shooter and use that to judge whether in front, behind, above or below!

Never seen a shot cloud yet though the wad is clearly visible.

I have seen a .22 bullet flash by when using a spotting scope but is of no use as its too small and going too fast - circa 1050 feet per second as it leaves the barrel and then slowing. 

 

[chippy]

Choke threads do make me want to shi7 in my own eyes but a quick one- the H5 would have no way gone through the pattern with any choke/load combo. That was 100% just a miss.

Carry on..!

How can you fail to be excited by a good UNC or UNF or BSF or BSW or a BSP I will never know.

 

[Hamster]

You most certainly can see both shot clouds (a brief blur) as well as air gun pellets in flight, for the former you need to know where and how to look and it isn't doable all the time because certain light conditions make it next to impossible.

When I was younger I made a habit of correcting aim points if a bird I was aiming at with my .177 air gun was missed a few times on the trot, I'd hold aim then slightly raise my eye to look for the pellet in flight  :yes:  , a couple of months ago I was out shooting magpies with a .22 air gun running at 16.5 ft lbs and after missing a young bird off hand at around 60+ yards for the 3rd time, I looked for and saw the pellet going a good few inches right so walked a little closer, held left and killed it stone dead, for the disbelievers who think it unlikely you'd see an air gun pellet at those sorts of ranges, well it needn't be seen at the exact range of aim, if you see it earlier and it's on the right then the logical conclusion is that it will still be right further along. :boast:

If you use a bright pellet whilst lamping rabbits you'd have a job not seeing the pellet on its way to the head.

 

[Jim Wheeler]

interesting video that Bryn put up.  and to add a few observations of mine,, (many) years ago, in bright sunshine which is behind you, you can see the blur of the shot, and at some point the "in" cartridge had nickel plated shot, not sure of make,, mirage maybe,, but then you could see it 'sparkle' in the light. also seemed to have a bit of a tail, not a short cloud,,,, eyesight no good for that anymore!

we also played with tracer rounds , as we used to shoot under lights, also fun!, but various other things can help to see where your shooting,,,notably across water when a 'duck' is thrown, close to water level, very similar to a rabbit,, preferably on gravel or similar, to see how far behind you miss!

 

[ips]

I concur with hammy its easy to see air gun pellet in flight.

Also agree with Robert you can tell by looking behind the shooters shoulder it is surprising how far some people miss by.

And yes in certain conditions you can see the shot cloud.

Personally i cant see any relevance in wad flight.

 

[westley]

Chippy,

Can I suggest that you track down a Beretta 301. The chokes on that model did NOT have threads, it may just save you a fortune on Optrex ! 

Sorry Chippy, just re read the thing, it was aimed for Mr. Ed.

 

[Rosso]

interesting video that Bryn put up.  and to add a few observations of mine,, (many) years ago, in bright sunshine which is behind you, you can see the blur of the shot, and at some point the "in" cartridge had nickel plated shot, not sure of make,, mirage maybe,, but then you could see it 'sparkle' in the light. also seemed to have a bit of a tail, not a short cloud,,,, eyesight no good for that anymore!

we also played with tracer rounds , as we used to shoot under lights, also fun!, but various other things can help to see where your shooting,,,notably across water when a 'duck' is thrown, close to water level, very similar to a rabbit,, preferably on gravel or similar, to see how far behind you miss!

It was a mirage ok.

Same as in the desert when you think an Oasis is a Wetherspoons.

Only the Golden Pellet can clearly be seen.

 

[Bryn12]

anyway I'm quite happy with accepting it was a 100% miss which is what I called, and sorry for being the cause of this topic being dragged into a parallel dimension.

1st time I saw .22 rounds in flight was at the Cumberland & Westmorland chmps, at Lowther, must've been the one and only year it wasn't blowing a gale and/or hissing down, couldn't see them all the way but for quite a distance on on the 100yd targets it was like a fishing line being cast.

 

[Bryn12]

It was a mirage ok.

Same as in the desert when you think an Oasis is a Wetherspoons.

Only the Golden Pellet can clearly be seen.

yup, Clever mirage T1, 7.5,.................oh I see :sclerosis:

 

[Jim Wheeler]

yup, Clever mirage T1, 7.5,.................oh I see :sclerosis:

whahahaha,,, I wondered too,,, I wondered where Rosso keeps his stash,, :haha:

 

[Rosso]

whahahaha,,, I wondered too,,, I wondered where Rosso keeps his stash,, :haha:

Ha ha ha.

Safe in the wife's underwear draw.

No one would look in there.

 

[Bryn12]

Ha ha ha.

Safe in the wife's underwear draw.

No one would look in there.

except the milkman

 

[Doctor Lecter]

gentlemen back on track , do any current  good shots use open chokes    names please . :hunter:

 

[Rosso]

except the milkman

What milkman!How do you know?

Is he Welsh?

Lot of Welsh on here.