Old Gun / New Cartridges

[philpot]

Here is a little brain teaser for you chaps. I have said in another topic last week that I will be getting a new Caesar Guerini but in the mean time I have a question. I bought a Remmington 3200 with both trap and skeet barrels to get me back into shooting after a long lay off. Now this gun really shoots trap very well, I am refering to DTL, ABT and OL, all shot with 28grm 7's, when I use 24grm 7's the difference is quite dramatic. we go from dusting to chipping the clays.

At first I just thought it was me, so I asked a regular OL shooter to have a go and he found the same result. It makes no difference if I use the same make of cartridges either ie. RC2 or White Gold XLR. I wondered if the fact that this gun is xxxxx years old and perhaps originally made for 32 grm, I assume, that the old style barrel and chokes used just don't allow the modern 24grm to perform as they would in a modern gun. I should say that I have used these carts in my wife's Browning Cynergy with no problem.

It is a puzzle to me and although I will be upgrading to a new gun, I don't want to get rid of this old lady as I do enjoy shooting it and the skeet barrels on ISU skeet are a brilliant. I am most interested to hear your thoughts on this subject.

Phil

 

[Hamster]

Hello Phil,

No mate not just you at all, I notice these things myself and that's the reason I'm so anti 21g loads. I notice the difference in breaks from 32 down to 28 down to 24 and most definitely down to 21g, the point of balance for me happens to be 28g loads. That's where there is plenty of scope for getting proper good breaks and smokes when you're on 'em and still manage to build a decent score when you're not quite where you should be.

I recall very clearly one day having a good go at trap targets at Dartford GC and buying a few boxes of 24g plastics used by the locals. The difference between them and my usual ammo was bordering on silly. Try as I might I could not get a smoke on any target.

Now to get a little anoraki I would say I consider 7's to be a poor choice for DTL in any load. I know the Italians use a lot of that compared to us but perhaps they just make sure the patterns are sooo tight so as to compensate for the handicap of fewer pellets. The thing is it only takes a pellet or max three to give the impression of excellent breaks, something that clearly your 7 shot and 28g load is capable of delivering but cut back to 24 and suddenly you're struggling to deliver quite the same numbers to these edge on retreating clays and the resultant poor breaks will do nothing for your shooting or confidence.

Maybe try the 24g loads in shot size English 7.5's or even 8's and see if that doesn't improve matters?

 

[philpot]

Very interesting piont regarding 7s or 7.5s Hamster because 5yrs ago when I was shooting regularly at DTL and ABT and some sporting I used to use Eley blues, superb and Vip in 7.5.

The ground I used to be a member of has now closed and my wife and I have joined Beverley CTC in East Yorks so I simply took the carts they were selling at better prices than the gunshops. I will check what else they have in 7.5 and give them a whirl.

We are going down to John Bidwells place for a few days in March so I do want to sort out some other shells for the sporting birds anyway so it is time to have a play with a few variations to see what works well.

Phil

 

[40UP]

If this is happening - we've had a long previous thread on this subject [Matt may supply the link] - then it must be that the 24gm is not populating the dense core of a choked barrel pattern. The centre 12inch causes the smoked kills refered to. Can you try top barrel first as well? The theory of square charges comes in nearer to 28gm in a 12bore where the height and width of the shot charge are equal.

There's still no doubt that 7s are better than 7.5s because the retained energy of the whole charge is greater at 30yds for the 7s whereas the number of pellet strikes is proportional. You canny change the laws of physics.

 

[Hamster]

There's still no doubt that 7s are better than 7.5s because the retained energy of the whole charge is greater at 30yds for the 7s whereas the number of pellet strikes is proportional. You canny change the laws of physics.

You are right in energy terms, no argument there, where the theory fails is in the numbers of pellets present. You cannot get away from the reality that fewer pellets present mean lesser chance of multiple hits. Smokes are caused by multiple hits not single strikes.

 

[40UP]

But the multiple hits don't break the clay - the energy transfered to the clay by the pellets cause the break. Now if you said that the larger pellet may pass through without transfer of all its energy to the clay then I might be with you. The chance of deflection of the smaller pellet is greater which causes it to take its energy with it. On a trap target less than 5% of the visible target is at right angles to the pellet unless you count the knurled band but to pass right through the pellet has to go through both sides. If you watch the high def film of pellets striking then the pieces are in all directions by the arrival of the last pellets in the shot string [ref Petrov earlier] which accounts for the smoke.

How about an argument that you can't have a decimal place of a pellet strike?

 

[Hamster]

The more pellets that hit the target, with the greatest striking force, the more convincing the smoke. This is why it is much much easier to get smokes at shorter ranges; strikes as well as the power of those strikes diminish as the range increases. I would shoot the biggest shot size permissible if kinetic energy was the only criteria, as it is I trade off power for density.

My reasoning is that even single strikes from a size English 8 is usually sufficient to cause a break, more often than not though extremely good breaks at all sensible ranges I'm capable of hitting the clay. Power is only any good if the clay doesn't slip through the net unscathed.

 

[Tim]

I know its off-topic but please could you let us know how you get on at High Lodge Phil, as that's my regular S.G. and it would be interesting to hear how others find it and consider the standard of the targets and facilities there.

Cheers

Tim

 

[philpot]

Hi Tiim

My wife and I have been shooting at High Lodge for the past 7 years and stay in the wooden holiday lodges to the rear of the ground. You may not have seen them as quite a number of locals never go around the back of the skeet layout to the right of the car park. Brilliant place, superb layouts and being able to walk out of the lodge with your cup of coffee and a fishing rod, catch carp within 5 yards of the french doors is wonderful to say the least. For anyone who fancies a trip to High Lodge, I can highly recommend these beautiful holiday lodges.

We are there for a short break this time on the 9th-12th March. Keep an eye open for a blue Honda 4x4 Tim, and come round and have a coffee at the lodge.

Phil

 

[Slugo]

thought I would post an image of my very first dedicated sporting clays gun. Browning Citori B325, 12 gauge with 30" barrels. Purchased in 1993 and rotated with my other Browning target guns. I shoot mostly 20 gauge these days...

 

[40UP]

Either that's the original photos or you've not rotated it often enough

 

[philpot]

A very nice example indeed. I used to have one of the original Citori's many years ago, always liked it but I got into Beretta's and drifted away from browning/ miroku brands.

Phil

 

[Slugo]

honestly, every time out and back I thoroughly wipe down the gun and clean it up. I'm a bit anal. maybe it's my upbringing, didn't have much growing up. For my 12 gauge shooting it splits time with my 30" Citori Lightning Sporting Clays. Then I have two 20 gauge Browning target guns I also use...

 

[Westward]

That's my favourite Browning and the superb condition is a credit to you. Being anal about caring for things is okay with me. Was it ported from the factory? I'm not 100% but I don't think it was a factory option over here.

 

[Slugo]

Yes, all the target grade Brownings in the US come with ported barrels. That's one of our big gripes over here, we would like to see lighter weight non-ported barrels. It's not really a big issue, but hard to understand why Browning continues to do it here...

 

[Westward]

Porting never really caught on here and even though it's factory ported it would probably reduce the resale value. Some say it helps with muzzle flip and the physics would agree that diverting pressure away from the shot and redirecting it upwards must have some effect.

My attitude is that if muzzle flip is a problem change to a Beretta. :wink:

 

[Slugo]

much ado about nothing. Resale in the US is not affected, it's just silly IMHO. To me, there isn't much recoil in an 8 pound plus 12 gauge shotgun...