How to score - hit but not broken..

[tiptop]

As the first line of the rule states....A regular target that in the opinion of the Referee only:

There's the rules for targets hit or lost.  Make of them what you will. At the end of the day it's the ref decision as clearly stated in both.

TARGET DEFINITION “HIT” A regular target that in the opinion of the Referee only: 3.10 Has had a visible piece broken from it, is completely destroyed or, in the case of targets that are presented whole and during flight holes are seen to appear which have been caused by the Competitor’s shot.

TARGET DEFINITION “LOST” 3.11 A target, which has some “dust” removed from it, by the shot, but remains otherwise “intact”, is not a hit target. A target shall be declared “LOST” when in the opinion of the Referee only: 3.12 A regular target remains unbroken after being fired at and is not a “Hit Target” in accordance with the above rules. 3.13 The competitor after an apparent malfunction or misfire opens the gun or moves the safety catch.

 

[Guest]

As the first line of the rule states....A regular target that in the opinion of the Referee only:

There's the rules for targets hit or lost.  Make of them what you will. At the end of the day it's the ref decision as clearly stated in both.

TARGET DEFINITION “HIT” A regular target that in the opinion of the Referee only: 3.10 Has had a visible piece broken from it, is completely destroyed or, in the case of targets that are presented whole and during flight holes are seen to appear which have been caused by the Competitor’s shot.

TARGET DEFINITION “LOST” 3.11 A target, which has some “dust” removed from it, by the shot, but remains otherwise “intact”, is not a hit target. A target shall be declared “LOST” when in the opinion of the Referee only: 3.12 A regular target remains unbroken after being fired at and is not a “Hit Target” in accordance with the above rules. 3.13 The competitor after an apparent malfunction or misfire opens the gun or moves the safety catch.

The way I read that, Westward giving a kill for a long midi changing direction is wrong, it should be a loss!!!

 

[Oldblaster]

I thought you people had read the rules. :no:

TARGET DEFINITION “HIT” A regular target that in the opinion of the Referee only: 3.10 Has had a visible piece broken from it, is completely destroyed or, in the case of targets that are presented whole and during flight holes are seen to appear which have been caused by the Competitor’s shot.

I stand corrected, apparently a hole is ok as a kill, but you must have really good eyesight to see a pellet hole in a fast moving clay at a distance!

 

[schmokinn]

I stand corrected, apparently a hole is ok as a kill, but you must have really good eyesight to see a pellet hole in a fast moving clay at a distance!

Like something out of the 6 Million Dollar man  :wink:

 

[Westward]

The way I read that, Westward giving a kill for a long midi changing direction is wrong, it should be a loss!!!

A target will often (not always) flutter or twitch when 'dusted' or when the shot passes close by, but the only possible reason for a clay going off on a different trajectory is because it's been hit and damaged by pellets and when it's a long way out the pattern is very thin with few pellets hitting the clay and typically, no normal person can see the chip.

The rules can never cater for each and every situation - which is why we have refs.

 

[DavidJ]

Have shot & reffed / scored, one needs to see a peice off the clay, sorry in my book dust is not a hit, deviation I would not mark as a hit nor would I expect one to be called as a hit. 

Might be harsh to some, 

Dust is not a HIT!!!! what is it then? because it's clearly not a miss. That's not harsh its just being stupid. 

 

[Lloyd Pattison]

Dust is not a HIT!!!! what is it then? because it's clearly not a miss. That's not harsh its just being stupid.

I wonder here what the definition of "dusted" is. David and I would I am sure agree that a dusted clay has been thoroughly vaporised and converted into a cloud of dust. You would score that as a miss because you didn't see a bit break off? 

OR

You guys have a different definition of Dusted.....

 

[Charliej]

I wonder here what the definition of "dusted" is. David and I would I am sure agree that a dusted clay has been thoroughly vaporised and converted into a cloud of dust. You would score that as a miss because you didn't see a bit break off? 

OR

You guys have a different definition of Dusted.....

Think in this instance "Dusted "refers to small amounts of dust being struck off the Clay from the shot as opposed to vaporizing it or often called Smoking it

 

[DavidJ]

I wonder here what the definition of "dusted" is. David and I would I am sure agree that a dusted clay has been thoroughly vaporised and converted into a cloud of dust. You would score that as a miss because you didn't see a bit break off? 

OR

You guys have a different definition of Dusted.....

Dusted at everywhere I have shot and with who I have shot has always meant vaporised, the clay is reduced to a cloud of dust.

 

[JER2]

Dusted at everywhere I have shot and with who I have shot has always meant vaporised, the clay is reduced to a cloud of dust.

You and your mates are using the word completely differently than everyone else.  What you call "dusting" everyone else refers to as "smoking" as in "man you smoked that target".

A dusted target flies on intact, has no visible piece missing or broken off, and only a wisp of clay dust comes off it so it's LOST or ZERO.

 

[schmokinn]

You and your mates are using the word completely differently than everyone else.  What you call "dusting" everyone else refers to as "smoking" as in "man you smoked that target".

A dusted target flies on intact, has no visible piece missing or broken off, and only a wisp of clay dust comes off it so it's LOST or ZERO.

He isn't the only one to use that terminology many do as a reference to turning it to dust,everyone else does not refer to it as "smoking" quite often it refered to as powdering and many other things....nobody is correct or incorrect 

 

[Richard59]

Dust is not a HIT!!!! what is it then? because it's clearly not a miss. That's not harsh its just being stupid. 

Its also the current CPSA rule, applying the rules equally and fairly is not stupid, not stupid at all

 

[DavidJ]

Its also the current CPSA rule, applying the rules equally and fairly is not stupid, not stupid at all

You still havent said what you mean by dust? If your saying a vaporised clay is not a kill because you can't see a piece of broken clay then let me know where your scoring and I'll give the shoot a miss.

 

[Sian]

7 hours ago, DavidJ said:

You still havent said what you mean by dust? If your saying a vaporised clay is not a kill because you can't see a piece of broken clay then let me know where your scoring and I'll give the shoot a miss.

Been reffed many times by GOC and he is an excellent ref.  What you show on the video is not what he is talking about at all.  He  refs  for many top shooters so he’s very used to seeing that happen

 

[Hamster]

Over here "dusted" usually implies that the clay received a glancing blow which knocked a little dust off but failed to break the clay,  to describe a clay that vanishes into thin air we tend to say things like smoke or vapour. Apparently the term dusted is taken to mean "smoked" stateside. 

 

[Lloyd Pattison]

Neither David Nor I are American, all of these terms are colloquial and therefore interchangeable depending on usage, hence requiring clarification. 

colloquial

kəˈləʊkwɪəl/

adjective
adjective: colloquial

1. 
   
   (of language) used in ordinary or familiar conversation; not formal or literary.
   "colloquial and everyday language"
   
   
   synonyms:
   
   
   informal, conversational, everyday, casual, non-literary; More
   
   
   
    
    
   
    
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   antonyms:
   
   
   literary, formal
   
   
   
   
   There is no right or wrong, just different. 
   
   Oop north, when a clay is seen to have some dust or come off it but not break or visibly change direction we just call that a miss.
   
   
   

 

[DavidJ]

Over here "dusted" usually implies that the clay received a glancing blow which knocked a little dust off but failed to break the clay,  to describe a clay that vanishes into thin air we tend to say things like smoke or vapour. Apparently the term dusted is taken to mean "smoked" stateside. 

'over here'  or do you mean 'down south'.... 'up north' dusted, smoked, powdered all mean the same thing from my experience.

 I done a quick youtube search for dusted clay and the video above was one of many that came back.

 

[Richard59]

10 hours ago, DavidJ said:

You still havent said what you mean by dust? If your saying a vaporised clay is not a kill because you can't see a piece of broken clay then let me know where your scoring and I'll give the shoot a miss.

Yes even this old chap has no problem with seeing this clay is clearly hit, the op question refers to clays that after being shot at have no visible piece, however small broken off it, if one sees what appears to be “dust” ( not, as in this video dusted ) and in the opinion of the ref / scorer still unbroken clay flies on that is a LOST target. Thats not my call, thats within the current CPSA rules, as shown in Martins earlier post. 

 

[Hamster]

'over here'  or do you mean 'down south'.... 'up north' dusted, smoked, powdered all mean the same thing from my experience.

 I done a quick youtube search for dusted clay and the video above was one of many that came back.

I meant whenever I have heard the terms applied locally which would admittedly be fairly limited to the bottom half of this country. I'm not American, or English but you invariably pick up the various variations of intent behind words. There was in fact a big thread on this very subject some while back on ShotGunWorld I seem to recall where the same confusion seemed to reign, in practice it's not that hard, you can indeed dust a clay as in smoke it into a cloud of vapour but clearly that is going to result in a hit being awarded, if you dust it as in cause a flicker of cloud like material to rise from the target then that should always be scored as loss. 

 

[schmokinn]

"clearly that is going to result in a hit being awarded" you would have thought so but recently i have twice had to pick different refs up,obviously distracted and on said they didn't see any bits.....no because there wasn't any!