George Digweeds World record 130YD teal at Bisley Live

[Hamster]

I would imagine if the pattern sheet is anything to go by that even a full face clay can only really hope to luck into single strikes at those ranges so we can safely assume that the energy retained by no. 5 shot is enough to cause a fracture. 7.5`s obviously run out of steam at 90ish. I believe there are ballistics programs out there that would work out the actual ft lbs kinetic energy if you input the right figures to begin with but personally I think the figures are of barely academic interest. Things like shot hardess and clay brittleness must count for as much as the figures.

 

[GlenPresley]

Maybe the long range pigeons I shot had bone deficiencies then! That's it I knew there was an explanation for it! Seriously makes sense hopefully someone can give us some data to ponder on! /wp-content/forum-smileys/sf-laugh.gif/wp-content/forum-smileys/sf-laugh.gif/wp-content/forum-smileys/sf-laugh.gif/wp-content/forum-smileys/sf-laugh.gif/wp-content/forum-smileys/sf-laugh.gif/wp-content/forum-smileys/sf-laugh.gif/wp-content/forum-smileys/sf-laugh.gif/wp-content/forum-smileys/sf-laugh.gif

 

[ExSCA]

OK - this might help (I'm sure someone will tell me otherwise)http://www.shotgunsportsmagazi.....istics.pdfLook at the time/drop exterior statistics - 10 inches at 60 yds, at a muzzle velocity of 1200ish fps - now, I'd imagine that current carts are more like 1400/1500 fps - still, there is some drop-off. I had a web page of a guy that had LOADS of studies about this stuff, but I cannot find it right now.

 

[** Pending Removal **]

Classic Glen!!!I cannot post a reply because I am laughing so much./wp-content/forum-smileys/sf-laugh.gif/wp-content/forum-smileys/sf-laugh.gif/wp-content/forum-smileys/sf-laugh.gif/wp-content/forum-smileys/sf-laugh.gifI can just see the faces if I turned up a our 'high bird' shoots and pull out 40gr 5's...../wp-content/forum-smileys/sf-surprised.gif/wp-content/forum-smileys/sf-surprised.gif/wp-content/forum-smileys/sf-surprised.gifI would be black balled off!!It is bad enough that I use a 34" barrels in the purists eyes/wp-content/forum-smileys/sf-laugh.gif Boy is a 20 bore good with 32grms. Glen we have proved before that it is a wast of time discussing 'real birds' over 60yds with people who are not au fait or who do not shoot them or game (FFS they are only just getting to be a decent pick of the bunch at that 60 yds!!). There are lists and facts and equations etc etc  and then there are beautiful birds falling from an great height after the first shot.............Mmmmmmmm ....I will keep hoping my luck is in ......if I had to shoot birds at 40 yards I think I would give up. Nige is right. George is an untouchable phenominan and his skill outweighs many many others / doubters / wanabees / etc etc. Take a lesson people and trust what the man says.....after all he did it!!/wp-content/forum-smileys/sf-laugh.gif/wp-content/forum-smileys/sf-laugh.gif/wp-content/forum-smileys/sf-laugh.gif/wp-content/forum-smileys/sf-laugh.gif/wp-content/forum-smileys/sf-laugh.gif

 

[GlenPresley]

The moral of the story - Anything is possible you just have to have the confidence in your own ability and have that ability in the first place! Never under estimate what a shot gun and a cartridge can do! /wp-content/forum-smileys/sf-wink.gif

 

[ExSCA]

Or a catapault. I could definitely nail it with a catapault and a marble.

 

[Andy S]

shootclay admin said:

Or a catapault. I could definitely nail it with a catapault and a marble.

Matt, I would like to see you hit that high driven on Sunday with a catapult and a marble/wp-content/forum-smileys/sf-laugh.gif/wp-content/forum-smileys/sf-laugh.gif/wp-content/forum-smileys/sf-laugh.gif Andy

 

[hnachaj]

Here goes for the math:1 Oz of 7 has 340 pellets 50 yard energy is .76 ft/Lbs1 1/4 Oz of 5 has 275 pellets 50 yard energy is 1.36 Ft/LbsFull choke at 60 yards has 32% of the pellets in a 30 inch circle or 24 5s. 5s retain energy more at longer distances. At 130 yards there could be only 10 but the energy would be on par for 7s at 50 which is sufficient for target breaking. Shot drop at 60 yards of 10 inch cannot be allowed for as we do not aim a shotgun like a rifle. Also, we use a 30 inch circle as the main pattern. Is very similar to sighting in a rifle at 2 inch high at 100 yards. It is irevelant on deer sized game at distances from 50 yards to nearly 300 yards. Just put the sight in the middle of the kill zone and you will get a kill. 5s will have substantialy less drop at 100 plus yards as you can see in the Shotgunsports range chart. Due to retained energy, it also goes further. We use 1 1/4 5s at 4 dram or max loading to cleanly kill pheasants at 60 plus yards. Last year in South Africa, we were killing birds with Italian 7.5 and LM choke at distances where you could not make out the type of bird. Ask John Pool or Tony Manvell about the distances there. What helped what 5,000 feet altitude and the thin air. LM shot like full. If I have time, I will look up my ballistics of shot at 100 yards. It is I think in the other computer. The Lone Canadian,Henry/wp-content/forum-smileys/sf-wink.gif

 

[GlenPresley]

So just talking off the cuff here if I said I had to shoot over the top of a long range target to drop the shot (allow for the shot falling due to lack of energy) into the clay to break it that would be pretty ridiculous right??? I guess for a teal type crow that goes straight up and peaks would then be a case of timing the shot at the perfect moment for example shooting X amount underneath it as it is peaking as for the clay to fall into the shot??? Would that make sense? That is how I would attack a long range target like this but again the timing would be key. Glen.

 

[Nigel]

Hamster said:

I think you`re misunderstanding me Nigel. Skill is what made George shoot a 117 x 120, 3 clear of 1200 others. Line up 1200 people and let them fire at that same bird 10 times each, I would bet VERY good money that the winner would be the one who fires at the right spot in the sky AND the luckiest on the day,  not George.

I'd equal your bet and I'll say George would be the guy who would be the most consistent on how often he can break the targets, that's no disrespect to other good shots on here one of whom I'd say one would almost and if not be equally as good at breaking that target on the same day as George . 

and Never underestimate what George can do !!! Yes George is King /wp-content/forum-smileys/sf-laugh.gif Nige

 

[Chris B]

Dont know if this is relavent but Steve Nutbeam and I tested some eley superbs against some Little Gems (I think) both 28grms 7 1/2. At 100yds I shot straight at a 4ft x 3ft piece of stiff card, the pattern covered the complete card but I did not have to allow for drop. If your interested the gems hit a lot harder than the superbs.

 

[Hamster]

GlenPresley said:

So just talking off the cuff here if I said I had to shoot over the top of a long range target to drop the shot (allow for the shot falling due to lack of energy) into the clay to break it that would be pretty ridiculous right??? I guess for a teal type crow that goes straight up and peaks would then be a case of timing the shot at the perfect moment for example shooting X amount underneath it as it is peaking as for the clay to fall into the shot??? Would that make sense? That is how I would attack a long range target like this but again the timing would be key. Yes Glen it would be ridiculous. At normal shotgun ranges of up to 60 yards there is no way you could consciously allow (or even have to) for shot drop; the normal variations such as aiming error, wind, timing and of course the targets own trajectory would make that churlish at best. At well over 100 yards everything drops, even high velocity rounds drop. A .17 HMR round starting at well over supersonic speeds and weighting only 17 gr would drop significantly at that range if initial zero is say 35/100 yards. It would be interesting to do some real world testing of shot drop as well as penetration observations at 80+ yards. I did once place a TV monitor size cardboard at 100 yards and together with a few people at Willow Farm clay shoot we hammered it with around a dozen shots using Eley Superb 7.5`s, only to find next to no pellet strikes and one or two dents or semi holes which I couldn`t be sure weren`t there in the first place. An afternoon with the camera and shells beckons. 

 

[optima]

I did some pattern testing with carl bloxham,various shells,chokes at different ranges,to finish off i tried a eley fitasc 6.5 through three quarter choke at 100 yards,his pattern plate is about 5 feet square there was a total of three pellets on it,though you could see the shot hit the bank all round the plate.

 

[EdSolomons]

Heres my take on this... I will preface this by saying that: 1) at the moment George is the best shot in the world 2) he broke that clay a bloody long way off, a lot further than most will ever see Myself and a couple other guys have had a fair bit of experience shooting what you would call long birds. Not the kind of "long" stuff you see on sporting nowadays, but at ranges where you are specifically trying to see what a shotgun is capable of, and we have found the following (All this was backed up with a Guiness world record attempt at the Charley Mill charity shoot a few years back). Once you get to 80yards (YARDS, not paces. The two are very different!) 1oz of 7s start getting very patchy, both performance and energy wise. They will break past that, but very inconsistently. To get much past 90 you need big pellets, and enough of them to make a half workable pattern. At this range even the big bombs are inconsistent, and you do need a fair chunk of luck, who ever you are. This of course needs to be added to the fact that you are putting the shot on target which is not easy as we all know!At this range little things make a big difference; which way the clay is facing for example. The concave side facing the shooter is much easier to break with a single pellet strike than the convex side which can shrug them off.Distance wise, its rangefinder or nothing! I have seen crossers showing half face broken at over 100 paces pretty consistently, but 100yards in the real worl it looks a whole lot different! Also you need a trap throwing a vertical teal (chandelle trap etc) straight up, not angled towards the gun. Personally I think it would be a great side show at a shoot to have a topgun shootout like they have in Texas for the worlds, where the top X number of shooters all go head to head on the same bird at the same time, at measured distances, and have a three miss in a row and your out competition. Great for spectators and everyone can see whos doing what! For those of you who want to back my idea send an envelope full of cash to the pub and call me when your there! Bon fromage, Ed

 

[Hamster]

EdSolomons said:

Heres my take on this... I will preface this by saying that: 1) at the moment George is the best shot in the world 2) he broke that clay a bloody long way off, a lot further than most will ever see Myself and a couple other guys have had a fair bit of experience shooting what you would call long birds. Not the kind of "long" stuff you see on sporting nowadays, but at ranges where you are specifically trying to see what a shotgun is capable of, and we have found the following (All this was backed up with a Guiness world record attempt at the Charley Mill charity shoot a few years back). Once you get to 80yards (YARDS, not paces. The two are very different!) 1oz of 7s start getting very patchy, both performance and energy wise. They will break past that, but very inconsistently. To get much past 90 you need big pellets, and enough of them to make a half workable pattern. At this range even the big bombs are inconsistent, and you do need a fair chunk of luck, who ever you are. This of course needs to be added to the fact that you are putting the shot on target which is not easy as we all know!At this range little things make a big difference; which way the clay is facing for example. The concave side facing the shooter is much easier to break with a single pellet strike than the convex side which can shrug them off.Distance wise, its rangefinder or nothing! I have seen crossers showing half face broken at over 100 paces pretty consistently, but 100yards in the real worl it looks a whole lot different! Also you need a trap throwing a vertical teal (chandelle trap etc) straight up, not angled towards the gun. Personally I think it would be a great side show at a shoot to have a topgun shootout like they have in Texas for the worlds, where the top X number of shooters all go head to head on the same bird at the same time, at measured distances, and have a three miss in a row and your out competition. Great for spectators and everyone can see whos doing what! For those of you who want to back my idea send an envelope full of cash to the pub and call me when your there! Bon fromage, Ed

  ///////////////////////////////////////////// Spot on Ed, superb post. I think your shoot off idea is brilliant, comps need new angles to keep people interested and it may even help keep more people back to watch the shoot offs /wp-content/forum-smileys/sf-cool.gif/wp-content/forum-smileys/sf-smile.gif. I would even go as far as to say it may make a whole different side shoot on it's own, £10 per 10 bird entry at silly yardage with 36g max and really good payouts, wow /wp-content/forum-smileys/sf-laugh.gif.     

 

[GlenPresley]

Hamster said:

GlenPresley said:
So just talking off the cuff here if I said I had to shoot over the top of a long range target to drop the shot (allow for the shot falling due to lack of energy) into the clay to break it that would be pretty ridiculous right??? I guess for a teal type crow that goes straight up and peaks would then be a case of timing the shot at the perfect moment for example shooting X amount underneath it as it is peaking as for the clay to fall into the shot??? Would that make sense? Kind of scary really! To this day I have never shot at a pattern plate and never will!
/wp-content/forum-smileys/sf-laugh.gif/wp-content/forum-smileys/sf-laugh.gif/wp-content/forum-smileys/sf-laugh.gif/wp-content/forum-smileys/sf-laugh.gifThat is how I would attack a long range target like this but again the timing would be key. Yes Glen it would be ridiculous. At normal shotgun ranges of up to 60 yards there is no way you could consciously allow (or even have to) for shot drop; the normal variations such as aiming error, wind, timing and of course the targets own trajectory would make that churlish at best. At well over 100 yards everything drops, even high velocity rounds drop. A .17 HMR round starting at well over supersonic speeds and weighting only 17 gr would drop significantly at that range if initial zero is say 35/100 yards. It would be interesting to do some real world testing of shot drop as well as penetration observations at 80+ yards. I did once place a TV monitor size cardboard at 100 yards and together with a few people at Willow Farm clay shoot we hammered it with around a dozen shots using Eley Superb 7.5`s, only to find next to no pellet strikes and one or two dents or semi holes which I couldn`t be sure weren`t there in the first place. An afternoon with the camera and shells beckons. It is a bit different shooting at a stationery piece of card to a moving target! For one not all the pellets that hit a pattern plate hit it at the same time! In Madrid I think it was Madrid they had a small card going out on a cable at 90 metres and you got one shot at it for a pool shoot, over the course of a week I think the winner was 12 strikes on the card! Everyone had to use a 24gram 7.5 of the pool shoot organizers choice. I think I had 7 strikes! Never again! I have never shot at a pattern plate until this day believe it or not! 
/wp-content/forum-smileys/sf-laugh.gif/wp-content/forum-smileys/sf-laugh.gif/wp-content/forum-smileys/sf-laugh.gif/wp-content/forum-smileys/sf-laugh.gif/wp-content/forum-smileys/sf-laugh.gif 

 

[Outlaw]

I know sod all about distance targets except, when I very first started shooting, my mate Lou Amey who runs http://www.draytonclays.co.uk went out with me because I couldn't work out what lead was meant to be and how to judge it. I was shooting at a high house skeet bird from well over 60 meters away with 24gram 7 1/2 express shells. (The ground was closed for all the safety experts out there .) I still cant work out the lead but I hit a few but they weren't mashed up, just broken. Lou minced them though with only 1/2 choke, so even little loads in the right place can do damage. Working at an Oxford shooting club, I also felt shot falling from shots taken at high birds from well over 250 meters away, it can certainly sting your ears/wp-content/forum-smileys/sf-yell.gif