Coaching

[EdSolomons]

It depends what level ypu plan on shooting at really. If you have no plans to go any further than the local club every other weekend and shoot a 50 birder with your mates then a psycologist would be a bit unnessecary. If you want to get to a national team/compete for majors etc then your view will differ. Horses for courses and all that, dont knock it till you have tried it.

Ed

 

[ips]

I kind of agree with Mike and Ed but in different ways.

I think that with regards to sport psycology its a case of if you are open to it and believe it then it will be of benefit and most younger people these days are open to it. Some of us older ones for whatever reason are not open to it as we were not brought up on it. In our day you just got on with it and did the best you could. Some may class it as mumbo jumbo so obviously it will be of no use to them.

Its a bit like religious belief, if you are a believer then its very helpful in life (apparently) I however am a "pragmatic agnostic" so I don't bother myself with such things.

 

[maddmatt]

The "your coach much be world class in order to get you to world class" argument is flawed, there are licenced coaches in football that have never played professionally and yet, are employed by PL clubs to train professional footballers, same in tennis, same in golf and most competitive sports.

 

[EdSolomons]

I think its not a case of believing in it as such; it can be proven to be beneficial, thee is no argument. The thing is, if you are not that bothered about it, you wont apply yourself to it, so it wont work, and you have just proven a point to yourself.

If you entered with an open mind, listend, did what you were told and applied yourself with as much conviction as you do your technical game, then you would be har pressed NOT to notice the results. All depends what you are willing to put in...

 

[ips]

Thats kind of my point. Dont get me wrong i am not saying it is not extremely beneficial for those who are willing to embrace the idea however some people are not that way inclined, that is my only point.

 

[ehb102]

I think its not a case of believing in it as such; it can be proven to be beneficial, thee is no argument. The thing is, if you are not that bothered about it, you wont apply yourself to it, so it wont work, and you have just proven a point to yourself.

If you entered with an open mind, listend, did what you were told and applied yourself with as much conviction as you do your technical game, then you would be har pressed NOT to notice the results. All depends what you are willing to put in...

In my work we call this being "person centred". I can help people get over all kinds of things, but only if they are ready to address them. If the person wants to do the work then they'll benefit. If they aren't ready and willing then they won't get the results they say they want. Of course, usually there's some good reason why they don't want the results they claim to, such as if they did get the results it would mean X and Y and that would be upsetting. Quite often we have to help people get over blocks to working on themselves. 

 

[ips]

I am intrigued now as to what your work is ?

 

[teepee1234]

I think its not a case of believing in it as such; it can be proven to be beneficial, thee is no argument. The thing is, if you are not that bothered about it, you wont apply yourself to it, so it wont work, and you have just proven a point to yourself.

If you entered with an open mind, listend, did what you were told and applied yourself with as much conviction as you do your technical game, then you would be har pressed NOT to notice the results. All depends what you are willing to put in...

I'm a believer.  If you really want to advance - and stay up there - you have to accept psychological training.   

Mr. Wilson is a prime example.  To train him technically, the sheikh effectively broke him down emotionally in order for him to accept his methods, and then he built him back up. 

( I wonder what happened next... oh yeah!)  Just saying...

 

[ips]

Not liking the sound of being broken.

I have never been coached mentally or otherwise perhaps if i had been i would be a better shooter who knows. The problem with me personally would be in handing myself over in such a way. I have never been conformist or been able to accept being told what to do for any reason that is why i have run my own businesses since i was 20. I didnt even sit any exams at school of any sort purely because i was told i had too. My point to this is there are certain people who are beyond accepting help

 

[teepee1234]

Not liking the sound of being broken.

I have never been coached mentally or otherwise perhaps if i had been i would be a better shooter who knows. The problem with me personally would be in handing myself over in such a way. I have never been conformist or been able to accept being told what to do for any reason that is why i have run my own businesses since i was 20. I didnt even sit any exams at school of any sort purely because i was told i had too. My point to this is there are certain people who are beyond accepting help

It's not broken per se, rather a willingness to commit - as you say (being a grumpy old git!), it won't work unless you're prepared to accept something different to your own beliefs (call it what you will).

A very good coach once told me, having met me for the first time and had a long chat, that he couldn't coach me because he thought I was "too confident"!  He meant an arrogant SOB, and he was right to a degree.  But I WANTED to learn, so I listened and did exactly what he said - 2 weeks later I shot my first 25 at ESK.

It does work if you're prepared to commit.

(sorry, are we going off topic??)  :biggrin:   

 

[ips]

Point taken

Not really off topic IMO its all relevant.

 

[ehb102]

I am intrigued now as to what your work is ?

I am a Facilitator in the discipline of Traumatic Incident Reduction. I'm not a therapist, I don't tell you what to do. I am not a counsellor, I don't try and make you see the world my way. I use a set of methods that are themselves very, very effective. So effective that SAMHSA in the USA will now allow the health insurance companies pay for this. My hope is that NICE in the UK will follow eventually. When the NHS moves to payment on results I'll sign up to that in a heartbeat because this works. I was going to go back and retrain in psychology but when I saw the research data on how effective this is in treating Post Traumatic Stress Disorder I saved myself a fortune and yet another degree and learned something useful. 

Not liking the sound of being broken.

I don't like the sound of that either!

I have never been coached mentally or otherwise perhaps if i had been i would be a better shooter who knows. The problem with me personally would be in handing myself over in such a way. I have never been conformist or been able to accept being told what to do for any reason that is why i have run my own businesses since i was 20. I didnt even sit any exams at school of any sort purely because i was told i had too. My point to this is there are certain people who are beyond accepting help

What I do does not involve you putting yourself in someone else's power. That's why I'm not called a therapist. Bad experiences of therapy are a known issue for when I'm taking in clients. I don't think anyone is ever beyond accepting help, but sometimes they aren't ready to accept it. You are in control of yourself, and if you wanted to address you reactions to this or any other issue you have that in your power.  The shooting applications of what I do are interesting. I was talking to someone who would get irrationally angry with themselves if they missed. I can help people roll back through their experiences to find if there is a good reason why they feel this way, or in some cases if they are actually reliving a traumatic memory such as the time they really were terribly angry at themselves for missing. If someone thinks consciously they want to practice lots but they keep sabotaging themselves there is probably a good reason for that. If we can find the reason then we can solve the problem and the client isn't being controlled by a past experience. You don't have to know the reason for the issue, but we will find it. Anyone should feel free to message me if they would like to discuss this more. 

I used to working in marketing. No one ever took a long, hard look at their life and wanted to give it meaning then went into marketing. 

 

[ips]

Very interesting reading thank you for the explanation.

 

[Gil Ash]

No improvement happens without change.....for every change there is a price.....the value is in the commitment!....Vicki Ash

It's not what you know that makes you better it is what you are willing to learn....Gil Ash

Skill is not learned.....skill is developed.....the coach cannot give you skill.....the coach can however shorten the learning of something and explain the benefits of the change and the risks of not changing and at that point change becomes improvement if the shooter is willing to apply themselves......the only place you will find success before work is in the dictionary.....

the misconception that someone can "give you a skill" or let you in on the performance secret is the biggest thing that conflicts shooters today......skill comes not from knowledge and thinking about something but from doing something enough times correctly so you don't have to think about it when you are doing it!

most shooters are what we call conflicted......

there are two things they absolutely hate........1 change and        2  their current state of affairs....

we find that most are afraid to do anything about the way things are and are hoping to stumble onto the sliver bullet or the magic lead (leed) pill and when asked about their shooting give the strangest answers......well hope is not a plan

people who are successful are not afraid to do or try anything to better themselves.....and truth be known they go down a lot of dead end streets but the open doors they find are very rewarding....people who are afraid become products of their own environment and people who are not afraid become products of many environments.....it is a popular misconception that the student must have great trust in the coach to learn.....we find that the opposite is true.....the student must have GREAT TRUST IN THEMSELVES  in order to be coached successfully by ANYONE and when this occurs they begin to learn from everything that goes on around them.......their mistakes turn into opportunities to learn and they look forward to putting themselves in the arena to see how they react and learn from it and move on a better person.....that is how it works......

the coach cannot give you skill.....skill must be built by the toil and sweat of the athlete.....to say that someone can give you skill is to diminish all their hard work that went into building that skill and if they could give you the magic pill that would allow you to beat them in the next competition........do you think they would at any price....????

this is not to diminish anyones coaching ability.....you can learn from anyone many things....at the end of the day the fear of missing (which begins as hoping to hit) puts the muzzle in the way of the eyes and more targets are missed because of this than all other things combined.....GA

 

[psych4shooting]

Thought I might just add my thoughts in this area.

What is training and what is coaching, plus who is really qualified to make comment on this - it is all such a difficult viewpoint and much of it is perception.

Sports psychology is a complex area and yes it has evolved over many years, but seen acceleration in the last 15 years. In the US has been more advanced than the UK, and Australia was very much a world leader with the Australian Institute of Sport - this has been widely regarded as a model for many to follow, especially with the talent identification programmes they run.

Do top shots make great coaches - sometimes

Do average shots make great coaches - sometimes

There is nothing that backs one over the other, but and this is where I would like to make the point - it is instruction where many go wrong. If the initial instruction is not of the right level then a coach will probably have to start all over again following on what an instructor had started and I think that is where much goes wrong.

From a sport psychology point of view, then it is not for everyone, but for those that want to understand how the brain works, how you learn, how to deal with anxiety, what physiological reactions occur and how can you become mentally stronger then it has a place and can be of huge benefit. I believe that people can change habits, they can be open to change, but only if it is explained and demonstrated. I do get annoyed when people try to rubbish it and sometimes a simple thing to ask is "would you trust someone to rewire your house if they had only read a book on it??", people are professionals for a reason and becoming a professional is about hours and hours and years and years of practical experience and development. Even people who run there own business learn everyday, if one way does not work you try a different approach, you read, you go on courses you see what your competitors are doing, you try to gain and advantage - if you believe that a certain coach can give you that you do it.

If you look outside of shooting and to other sports, they use every element to get things right. The topic of the Lions is very much in the forefront at the moment and I have been very lucky to have been involved some years ago in preparation for the 97 tour - it was about details even then. Looking at weaknesses and using the right coaches to develop an attack on any seen weakness, changing people`s mindset and bringing 4 countries together. The role of a sports psychology consultant is to help people reframe situations,. look at what works and in fact the world of sports psychology in shooting can demonstrate fact rather than conjecture, so areas of looking at trigger freeze and beginning to prove it is not to do with recoil is a great example of this.

My mantra is give people the roots to grow and the wings to fly - you need a very good foundation to grow and you need confidence to fly...

 

[** Pending Removal **]

Another great post Gil

 

[Gil Ash]

we will be having a seminar the saturday we are over there to discuss this very thing......explaining the myserties that baffle shooters of all levels....have asked several coaches in the are to attend and have q round table discussion in order to share some insight and information....hope they will come ...hope to see you there....GA

Hey Phil thanks for your thoughts look forward to talking to you soon...

nicola....thanks for the flowers...toooo

 

[Fuzrat]

This has really turned interesting, superb stuff from Gil, Phil and Liz  

 

[Hamster]

Who coached the Sheikh? Or Digweed or Winser, Biddy, Howland, Greenfield, Thorrold, Simpson, Myers, Marshal, Mayor, Gordon, Elworthy, Clarke, Whitelock, Phillips, Howe or Smith?

 

[** Pending Removal **]

Go on.....who ???

:laugh: