Cartridge choice

[ips]

Sorry ips but how would lack of muzzle flip create better pattern bit of a contradiction

EH ?

You miss understand my friend.

Better pattern than 28 in some loads and some guns imo

Lack of muzzle flip has indeed nothing to do with pattern but a lot to do with second barrel target aquisition.

Hope that clears it up.

 

[ips]

"Merely that they are no worse for being 4G light"

I really, really would like to see your empirical evidence for the above statement. You can't make a valid claim on any OT you may have shot because you don't use that load (28g) for OT. Further you would need to do a comprehensive double blind test to get the data you would require and that would involve shooting more than a couple of rounds of any trap discipline you care to name. To get truly representative test results you would have to shot many thousands of rounds of each loading BUT firstly you would have to shoot the same number of your usual shell and analyse first and second barrel hit rates and then you would have to reference them to your average round score verses the score you made on the actual round you scored them. Then and only after you had that data would the double blind test begin. For the test to be statistically significant you would need to shoot a considerable number of rounds over a year to get the data required to make a positive analysis of results because every time you shoot the conditions are subtlety different. It is no good at all thinking something you have to prove that otherwise you are going on placebo effect only!

John my good friend.

I have no statistical evidence and never said I did. I am talking purely from personal experience. I can compare 32 & 28 & 24 gram loads at abt ot ut dtl Dr the reason being that I have shot all the above loads at all the above disciplines in the last thirty years. I currently shoot 24 at ot and 24 in first barrel 28 in second at everything else.

So to conclude I have never categorically stated 24 are better I have merely thrown possible and indeed plausible arguments into the debate.

Bored with it now.

 

[ips]

24g might be enough to get the job done but to state they pattern better that a 28g is ridiculous

Is it ?

It is widely known that different cartridges pattern differently for many reasons so why is it ridiculous ?

 

[Gavin]

Ips I wasn't having a go, but from some one that is totally recoil insensitive I can't tell the difference between a 21g or a 32g I can not see an advantage in shooting a 24g, and maybe it's just me but I think recoil is in most people's head if I stamped 32g one 24g shell most would tell me there thumpy, it's only my opinion but if recoil is a factor a slow 28g shell would be far superior than a hot 24g shell

 

[ips]

You may well be right Gavin.

I was never recoil sensitive and not particularly so now but I enjoy the benefit of no muzzle flip and the general comfort of 24.

Also from my experience my scores have not suffered (nor did they when we changed from 32 to 28) which is why I choose to shoot 24 on first barrel at disciplines I am allowed to use 28.

 

[ips]

Jeez

Cartridge debates are more stressful than poa poi or choke threads.

 

[Gavin]

Ips a shot gun pattern is random at best, and 1000 shots will not reproduce a match, as for less shot In the pattern might just cause you to concentrate a little harder, I shoot better with tight chokes for that very reason

 

[ips]

Gavin

It's all very interesting stuff that's for sure. Thing is as you know we're all different and perceive the shot in different ways. I can only reiterate that imo there is no loss of performance with 24 at trap as only the centre of pattern will break targets and 24 imo seem to have a better centre pattern. Add into the equation the afforsaid other benefits and it's difficult not to state that 24 MAY all things considered be actually better.

 

[Darkside]

James you really next time you are down here shoot Southdown. It is not soft. GD mid 80's the other week.

I don't see how you can comment on who shoots what and if it's soft or not without having shot the grounds yourself.

GD shot 85 at Southdown, 10th place, HG93, I think you can forgive him that after not having shot clays for 4 1/2 months, (Hamster shot a 74 that day for 34th place incidentally) pretty sure GD tweeted that he shot badly that day, even though he shot 99 at Horne (Hamster haunt) and was joint 2nd with three others on 95 at Southdown's sportrap...Hamsters scores are amongst his lowest at Southdown.

It's very easy to look up the CPSA web site and see the higher than average scores at most of the shoots Hamster has shot...Horne looks to be 'steady' https://www.cpsa.co.uk/scores/fixtures/48/62719

 

[Gavin]

Yes ips it's only an opinion, as for who's right and who's wrong who knows, I will always shoot the maximum allowed, you wouldn't strap a 12 bore to a punt,

 

[Hamster]

GD shot 85 at Southdown, 10th place, HG93, I think you can forgive him that after not having shot clays for 4 1/2 months, (Hamster shot a 74 that day for 34th place incidentally) pretty sure GD tweeted that he shot badly that day, even though he shot 99 at Horne (Hamster haunt) and was joint 2nd with three others on 95 at Southdown's sportrap...Hamsters scores are amongst his lowest at Southdown.

It's very easy to look up the CPSA web site and see the higher than average scores at most of the shoots Hamster has shot...Horne looks to be 'steady' https://www.cpsa.co.uk/scores/fixtures/48/62719

Out of my last 1600 reg targets only 100 have been at Horne (another 100 at HORNET), you are correct in that it is a steady round which is why I actually avoid it when I can so your description of it being my haunt is sadly as lacking as your general knowledge not to mention tact. 

If you remove the blinkers you will notice I have also shot 75 reg at Greenfields (my true haunt), the 74 at Southdown was due to it being very stiff coupled to my being the very last entry meaning I had to shoot every stand blind plus being in no mood to concentrate having literally nearly missed the deadline to enter.

The real question though is why you are such a sadact, why do you spend time studying other peoples scores and Sunday habits - we already know I will beat you off the left shoulder with 21g loads through Cylinder chokes :lol:   :lol:  so just lay back and enjoy life.

 

[shootinguru]

:fie:  OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOoooooooooooooooooHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh! :crazy:

 

[Rosso]

Does any body on here think Southdown is "SOFT" ?

I dont.

 

[Hamster]

Does any body on here think Southdown is "SOFT" ?

I dont.

I've shot there since the days of Dave Peckham and would say they have more mid hard than proper soft, in fact recall hitting an 84 once years back and being accused of taking things seriously  :lol:  by some guys. 

There are soft, mid and hard shoots everywhere, they even out in the end, that's what average means. The reason people like me end up in AA isn't my fault when you think about it, it's because people like our good friend  :ireful:  miss so many easy targets that it makes people who can produce 80% scores end up in the top 5% or whatever.

There are indeed none so blind than those who will not see. 

 

[jwpzx9r]

Ips I wasn't having a go, but from some one that is totally recoil insensitive I can't tell the difference between a 21g or a 32g I can not see an advantage in shooting a 24g, and maybe it's just me but I think recoil is in most people's head if I stamped 32g one 24g shell most would tell me there thumpy, it's only my opinion but if recoil is a factor a slow 28g shell would be far superior than a hot 24g shell

In essence the point of a double blind test! The cartridges would be unmarked, the boxes would be unmarked, the cartridges would look exactly the same, the person conducting the test would not know what was in the boxes, the person shooting would not even handle or put the cartridges into the chamber himself. The only person knowing what was going on would be the person analysing the data for the test.

Anyway at the end of the day everybody is allowed an opinion and placebo is or can be a strong motivator to do better or get better... thus the difference of opinions. Strangely enough I cannot tell the difference form one round to another but if someone tells me that the inclusion of an extra 4g of shot into a cartridge is not the better to break a target my brain says different and I use the 28g load!

 

[jwpzx9r]

You may well be right Gavin.

I was never recoil sensitive and not particularly so now but I enjoy the benefit of no muzzle flip and the general comfort of 24.

Also from my experience my scores have not suffered (nor did they when we changed from 32 to 28) which is why I choose to shoot 24 on first barrel at disciplines I am allowed to use 28.

Ian down here most shooters if they deviate from first to second barrel cartridge use a 28g 8 in the first and a 28g 7.5 in the second. It goes back to what I was saying earlier the belief is that the slightly smaller shot coupled with everything else dictates it is an advantage to have more objects in the pattern to increase the chance of breaking the target.

 

[Papa]

Hamster that day at Southdown you referred too , I shot earlier and I thought it was a 'proper' shoot that day . Last Sunday was more technical a few sim pairs twisty turnY stuff . I wouldn't describe Southdown as soft in answer to Rosso question .


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk 2

 

[Rosso]

:fie:  OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOoooooooooooooooooHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh! :crazy:

You having a dump !!!

 

[shootinguru]

:fie:  Rosso :fie:  , Us refined people don't have "dumps" we have "motions" :crazy:

 

[Eddie Wilkinson]

Oooh, this is entertaining :crazy:

Shoots can be easy one hour, hard the next due to weather conditions (especially this time of year) we all perceive difficulty in a different way in this game.

24 grm, 28 grm, 32 grm, shot em all and in fibre (At least another 5 pages :haha: )   liked them all, will shoot what ever I have too and get used to them.

Carry on  :nyam:

P.S  Why don't we all meet up at the ShootClay   cup and use 21 grm's for the fun of it :crazy:  small wager on the side for fun ? :spiteful: