21 gram for sporting

[Hamster]

Well its about time someone did a proper scientific test regarding such things, so as to make a proper assessment of things!!! Otherwise we only have personal opinions about such things. Not a good basis for a real and accurate comparison at all.

In such tests the 21g WILL yield to a 22g load, it has to as the oft repeated line of: if you put it in the right place does not exist in the real world. Nobody can put it in the right place all the time, we all rely on marginal kills and in any case even the centre core has to become more and more marginal with fewer pellets and greater distances.

 

[** Pending Removal **]

What a load of crap.

If you 'don't put it in the right place ....you will never hit it'........now that is one of my well repeated facts......true story..!!

And you know what.....it stands for everyone across the board......beginner or expert.

Of course experts and 'lucky people' tend to put it in the right place more than others....also a true story..!

Off now to shoot in the rain instead of talk about it..

 

[squimp]

In such tests the 21g WILL yield to a 22g load, it has to as the oft repeated line of: if you put it in the right place does not exist in the real world. Nobody can put it in the right place all the time, we all rely on marginal kills and in any case even the centre core has to become more and more marginal with fewer pellets and greater distances.

There is logic in what you say -  but given the variation between different brand cartridges (carrying the same shot load) and even between different cartridges from the same box......how do you quantify the result ?

Clayshooting magazine has recently published lots of data (only semi-scientific I admit) on the performance of different cartridges and it is surprising how much they varied thru' the same gun. Some shot looser patterns than the actual barrel constriction; others were much tighter. There was also some standard deviation data on cartridge consistency.

If you then start testing the relative performance of different (weight) loads things get much too complicated to make a 'real and accurate' comparison.

There was a thread on here a few weeks ago on 'barrel regulation'. Perhaps we are back there now - the answer is to decide what you want to achieve (in terms of pattern quality/density etc etc at a specific range)  and then find the right cartridge to do that job thru' YOUR gun.

 

[Will Hewland]

There is logic in what you say -  but given the variation between different brand cartridges (carrying the same shot load) and even between different cartridges from the same box......how do you quantify the result ?

Clayshooting magazine has recently published lots of data (only semi-scientific I admit) on the performance of different cartridges and it is surprising how much they varied thru' the same gun. Some shot looser patterns than the actual barrel constriction; others were much tighter. There was also some standard deviation data on cartridge consistency.

If you then start testing the relative performance of different (weight) loads things get much too complicated to make a 'real and accurate' comparison.

There was a thread on here a few weeks ago on 'barrel regulation'. Perhaps we are back there now - the answer is to decide what you want to achieve (in terms of pattern quality/density etc etc at a specific range)  and then find the right cartridge to do that job thru' YOUR gun.

Intriguing; but (as somebody who started out very scientifically then chilled out..) I notice that the best shooters broadly seem to have the least worry about this. It is everybody lower down the order that is constantly playing choke and cartridge chess.

 

[Les53]

There was a thread on here a few weeks ago on 'barrel regulation'. Perhaps we are back there now - the answer is to decide what you want to achieve (in terms of pattern quality/density etc etc at a specific range)  and then find the right cartridge to do that job thru' YOUR gun.

Yes that is very true! I have two guns, both with 3/4 & Full, put the same shells through both guns and the kills are different! I have used pattern plates many times over the years, but these days I would rather use clays to see what the patterns are like, it's the only sure way to find out what a paricular gun/choke/shell combination is capable of.

 

[Les53]

Intriguing; but (as somebody who started out very scientifically then chilled out..) I notice that the best shooters broadly seem to have the least worry about this. It is everybody lower down the order that is constantly playing choke and cartridge chess.

Yes Will......just get a choke and cartridge that works.....then leave things alone and forget about it. Then one has less to worry about!

 

[T.C.]

Having patterned 21gms at various ranges I found that pattern density will fall off with distance as it will for any shell.As the 21gm shell has less pellets, the pattern density fall-off with distance will become a major problem at shorter distances than it would with bigger shells.I cannot see how you can expect consistent breaks on edge on targets with 21 gm loads at long range. Extreme choke constriction will help some but even then it will involve luck as well as skill. To break a clay needs a certain number of pellets to hit the clay with a certain amount of energy ( mass + speed ) . I am talking about what is needed to break a target every time rather than a mixture of broken and not broken.I maintain that while 21gm are great in many circumstances they are not suitable for every target on every layout if you want to see consistent breaks.

 

[Hamster]

There is logic in what you say -  but given the variation between different brand cartridges (carrying the same shot load) and even between different cartridges from the same box......how do you quantify the result ?

That's easy, my reply addressed Les53 who wondered what a Scientific appraisal would reveal ?! Well in such scientific tests all sorts of things would be factored in and out and great care taken to evaluate according to equal knowns whilst dispelling snappy one-liners which are no more than throw away conversation pieces that please some but hold NO scientific relevance. 

You will break a clay with 5 gram of shot size 9 providing you place it in the right place, less in all likelihood, but is that reality or wishful thinking ?

Will is right as usual, there is more to be gained from less worry and more focus and practice but the question was what would Science say and the answer is it has no choice but to find inferior numbers inferior.

 

[Angelfire]

Cannot raise the willpower to read thro 6 pages after driving back from Jockland, but why not make it a rule - 21gm for ALL disciplines, even for the helicopter shooters. By gum, that would make shooting interesting.

Phil*

 

[Shaun Hopkins]

21s do break the vast majority of birds that we see week in week out (45 yard max normally) and are super soft to shoot.

 Proves it for me that when someone of Eds calibre puts the shot in the right place 99.9% of the time he broke the target with 21s it almost takes out the possibility of reduced shot pattern being to blame. would be interesting whether the likes of Mr Solomons and other high profile shots would attend a major comp with  21gm use only. rankster:

 

[EdSolomons]

I'd happily do it (went to wylyes one) as no problem when we all have to use the same.

There were no extreme birds there but all stuff at sensible ranges. No they don't do as good a job on the long stuff, so would be against a 21g rule for the discipline as it would lead to birds being brought in even closer than they are already, but as an event idea I think it is a good one and deserves to be well supported.

Ian and Don sorted the last one, interesting if someone like Steve L was interested in running one

 

[ROBERT6500]

Funnily enough it was actually me that started the idea of the 21g challenge at Wylye a long time back as I've been using them for years due to a medical condition that does not agree with recoil at all as many will know. 

But I was often sent out to nail the long crosser on the bank which we knew was 60yds as we regularly put a range finder on it, with a 21g fibre and just a Miroku skeet gun to show it can be shot. Now as anyone that knew that bird will tell you, you could always see the belly on that target which made it a little easier even with that 21g/skeet combination.  Now I don't shoot competitions any more, again due to my condition as many of you know but the 7 times I think it was that I actually went out and shot the registered targets course with a scorer/witness as a 100 birder my lowest score was 84 but it was raining and cold which I absolutely hate. My highest score was 95. I was very happy with these scores so mentioned it to several people that someone should do a 21g competition but no one was interested due to not wanting to be ridiculed.

However Don Brunt was the only one that was interested a little as he's seen me shoot with them.

Last year we were up at Richard Fauld's doing cartridge reviews and generally playing. Don decided to try "Double Trap" with the 21g for a laugh.

Now even to my surprise he was absolutely murdering them..both targets through his Guerini. Impressive shooting I must say never mind the cartridge. Suddenly Richard appeared and asked WTF cartridges was he using as they sounded so funny. When we said 21g he laughed..until Don showed him. :haha:  He was amazed and had one of the biggest smiles on his face I've ever seen from Richard.

This got Don thinking some more about a 21g challenge but where to do it. So I approached Ian about it but he wasn't to keen as he was worried people wouldn't turn up but both I and Don kept on to him until they did a deal.

Then I had a word with my sponsors Hull Cartridges about supplying the 21g at a good price for it. They wanted it badly so I went back to Ian and he agreed to go ahead.

We got in touch by various means with a lot of top shooters and thankfully several turned up (including Ed) :spiteful:  as well as the regulars.

That day we did not make the targets any easier on purpose but did put on some serious angles and had the usual stuff on the bank which included a 65yd left to right crosser in the quarry which turned into an 80yd crosser by the end of the day as the wind took it up over into the road on the top of the bank which is 80yds. And a Pool Shoot which was far from easy.

Now I remember very well Ed going onto the first stand on the Pool shoot and calling "pull" and absolutely murdered the long crosser down at the hedge. He then missed the easier target on report due to being so surprised he hit the first target so well with no recoil. I know this because he turned and told us so. You may remember it Ed. as you said " well, I know they will kill it if I put it in the right place". :haha: .  I can't honestly remember Ed's score but I know it was not a disgrace by any means.

Trying to cut a long story shorter....Stuart Rudland won that day with a score of 97 which played havoc with his head he told me.

So he asked if he could go back out and do it all again using his usual 28g cartridges. We thought it was a good idea so off he went and I followed him for while and saw him hit the now 80yd crosser in the quarry straight......WOW!. He did say he had full choke in then as he changes chokes quite a bit.

Keeping in mind he now knew the targets very well he returned absolutely dumbfounded as he shot just one (1) more target than with the 21g.

He did have a big smile though. He said that he would never use them again though as he can't get use to no recoil as it all plays with his head... :haha:

I saw some serious shooting that day and several personal bests including Mike Deacons (A class).

Enough said really. :spiteful: