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Miroku v Guerini


GeordieTrapper

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GeordieTrapper

What are members views on the Miroku MK60 Grade 5 and the Caesar Guerini Summit with adjustable comb? I have tried both and feel happy with either, both just under £3k. Intend to keep for foreseeable future, which is best buy or is there nothing in it?

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Westward

I've owned both too and I can hardly think of 2 guns more dissimilar. The MK60 is quite light overall, very light barrels, fixed choke, quite low in the comb and more oriented to game shooting than clays. The Summit is heavier overall, slightly heavier barrels, multi choke, fairly high in the comb and very much oriented to clay shooting. Summits also come in a decent travel case with a few nice extras, Mirokus come in a cardboard box with some foam inside.

Overall I can't think of single reason to choose the MK60 over the  Summit for clays. Game shooting it's perhaps 50:50 as the Miroku will likely have nicer woodwork.

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MartynB

Thoughts from a grade 5 Miroku owner (  a 38 trap and a MK60 20g )  both bought second hand and heavily invested in to get the stocks and chokes sorted .  

The Guerini is a very nicely specified clay gun as the guys above have pointed out . Note at £3000 it’s the base model of the Guerini range .

The MK 60 GD 5 is  actually just £1300 of fancy wood and engraving on Miroku’s  £1700 base model . 

 So we’ve a bit of a form or function in the choice you have to make . 

The only thing the guys above haven’t covered is for clay shooting the Guerini has a nice recoil pad , the Miroku has a hard plastic butt plate , more game orientated. 

If I was in the shop buying one for clays  , and it had to be a new gun to keep for a while  , The Guerini would win . 
 



 

 

 

 

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GeordieTrapper

The Guerini wood seems to be similar quality to the Miroku grade 5, this makes the base price the same?

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ColinD

Have you tried a Browning Ultra XS pro, good second hand ones available now for under 3k or new for just over

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Jonny English

I've just bought one of the new mk60 mk game's in 32" 20 bore and its a fantastic weapon. May be worth looking at the 12 gauge version. The improvements that I have noted from previous mk60's

Multi choked with invector plus

Solid mid and top rib

Nice rounded forend

Pachmeyer decelerator rubber butt pad

Slightly higher comb

Miroku abs case

No mid bead

I have been really impressed with the 20 bore, if I didn't have a nice beretta clay gun I would be looking at the 12 gauge for clays and game.

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westley

I can only comment on the 20 bore versions, used as game guns. I currently have A 32" CG Apex 20 bore and it is so front end heavy, I have added 2 ozs. lead to the stock but still the balance point is 2" in front of the pin. The Gd.5 MK 60 in 30", although it is now available in 32", is a much nicer handling gun and far better balanced.

Mind you, what do I know  ?  I got rid of one of those superb XS Pro's for a ProSport..........:whistle:

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The Miroku will never let you down, they have a proven record for reliability, my local gunsmith tells me he sees more CG’s with little faults than he does any other make. So for me, if looking to keep a gun for the foreseeable it would be the Miroku no question.

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Robden

Had both. CG all day long. I know of two other people that have dumped their Mirokus for CGs and have never regretted it. A bit like comparing apples with pears really.

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Paul120

It must be a regional thing. People generally  won't touch CG around here. Those that have had them changing to Miroku/Browning or Perazzi. 

Basically it comes down to whichever floats your boat.

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Robden
22 hours ago, Paul120 said:

It must be a regional thing. People generally  won't touch CG around here. Those that have had them changing to Miroku/Browning or Perazzi. 

Basically it comes down to whichever floats your boat.

Regional? Where are you then?

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Westward
On 2/10/2021 at 10:06 PM, jonz said:

The Miroku will never let you down, they have a proven record for reliability, my local gunsmith tells me he sees more CG’s with little faults than he does any other make. So for me, if looking to keep a gun for the foreseeable it would be the Miroku no question.

I've honestly never met a gunsmith who didn't knock CGs. I remember my smith sticking his nose in the air and saying: "When you get a problem with the ejectors, AND YOU WILL, don't bring it to me"!

Well he died a coupe of years ago but my ejectors are still going strong and I've yet to see one have ejector problems. Why go to a gunsmith anyway when AngloItalian will always step up with a trained smith and access to the factory? The only problems I've personally seen are finger trouble issues with the 4 or 5 adjustments for the trigger pulls and the adjustable forend because some people just can't leave things alone.

Ask any sporting ref which makes of O/U suffer with most fail to fire and the answer is always Browning/Miroku by a wide margin and it's almost always the bottom barrel. OTOH I see a lot of CGs and have never yet witnessed a FTF that wasn't a faulty shell.

IDK whether or not my CG will last for half a million rounds but I really don't care because I'll be 75 in a few weeks and shoot about 4,000 shells per year. 

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MartynB
On 2/10/2021 at 6:57 PM, westley said:

I can only comment on the 20 bore versions, used as game guns. I currently have A 32" CG Apex 20 bore and it is so front end heavy, I have added 2 ozs. lead to the stock but still the balance point is 2" in front of the pin. The Gd.5 MK 60 in 30", although it is now available in 32", is a much nicer handling gun

That’s why I  decided on Teague-ing  a  30” MK60 20g  for a game gun  I just like the feel of the fixed choke Miroku barrels way more than factory type  multi-chokes which are always beefier at the muzzle  .  I did find the comb to be  very low on the MK60 , so it was bent up at the same time that I had it cast .  GD 5 Miroku American Walnut is known for being weak through the wrist and presents difficulties if you need stock work , as the wrist is reinforced with a steel sleeve  .   I like Mirokus a lot to put that effort into getting what I wanted 

However when all is said and done , we all have preferences, opinions and predjudices , and like you what do I know either😂
 

 

 

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westley
5 hours ago, Westward said:

I've honestly never met a gunsmith who didn't knock CGs. I remember my smith sticking his nose in the air and saying: "When you get a problem with the ejectors, AND YOU WILL, don't bring it to me"!

Well he died a coupe of years ago but my ejectors are still going strong and I've yet to see one have ejector problems. Why go to a gunsmith anyway when AngloItalian will always step up with a trained smith and access to the factory? The only problems I've personally seen are finger trouble issues with the 4 or 5 adjustments for the trigger pulls and the adjustable forend because some people just can't leave things alone.

Ask any sporting ref which makes of O/U suffer with most fail to fire and the answer is always Browning/Miroku by a wide margin and it's almost always the bottom barrel. OTOH I see a lot of CGs and have never yet witnessed a FTF that wasn't a faulty shell.

IDK whether or not my CG will last for half a million rounds but I really don't care because I'll be 75 in a few weeks and shoot about 4,000 shells per year. 

I have shot Browning/ Miroku guns since the 1970's and have NEVER EVER had any misfire problems and some of the guns I have owned have been knocking on a bit....................like both you and I. Having said that, I did experience a problem with misfires with a 725 a couple of years back. Thinking "Oh, it MUST be the firing pins" cos we all know they are made from tin foil  !  Upon stripping the gun, I found that the bottom pin was covered in a black carbon which was causing it to stick and not come fully back. I stripped the action and removed both pins, the top was perfect, the bottom pin I had to take some fine wet and dry and some light oil to clean it. I then cleaned out their housings, and a very light coat of oil which cured the problem. Although I no longer have the gun, but I know the current owner, it is still causing no problems. It made me wonder how many other Browning/Miroku's have suffered the same problem and new pins have been fitted as a matter of course. I now have a ProSport and during the current lockdown , I have stripped and cleaned that. Sure enough, the bottom pin was showing the first signs of carboning up. After the last gun problem, I had a Grandaughter working in USA so I got her to pick up a set of supa dupa pins and springs...........................just in case  ! 

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Westward

Then again. A lad I used to shoot with bought a virtually unused Browning from his brother in law. The deal included the remaining 150 shells from the 1 and only slab his B-I-L had collected when he bought the gun new. Within another 500 or so rounds the misfires started due to pitting of the bottom firing pin. The local gunsmith (same one as in my post above) made up 2 new pins from silver steel. He said at the time that Browning/Miroku firing pins need to be custom fitted to the individual gun to achieve exactly the right protrusion; too much and they erode, too little and the strike is too light. I realise that they can also get coked up and do the same thing, but the reality is, a Browning can go 50K or 1K but sooner or later the firing pins - especially the bottom one - will erode and lead to FTFs.

Working as a ref for a number oy years I've seen dozens of FTF occur on O/Us and at least 19 times out of 20 it's been either a Browning or a Miroku.

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ColinD

All this negativity for CG is probably why they don't hold their secondhand value too well.But having owned one I found they were really well made shotguns and the after sales service is second to none, something Browning ought to take notice of.

And yes I have Browning now for the simple matter they fit me better, and so far no misfires, although checking the bottom pin on the 725 Prosport it's showing signs of pitting so will do as Westley advises.

Although could do with someone in America as due to Covid their not posting internationally at the moment of the super duper ones 😃

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1 hour ago, ColinD said:

All this negativity for CG is probably why they don't hold their secondhand value too well.But having owned one I found they were really well made shotguns and the after sales service is second to none, something Browning ought to take notice of.

And yes I have Browning now for the simple matter they fit me better, and so far no misfires, although checking the bottom pin on the 725 Prosport it's showing signs of pitting so will do as Westley advises.

Although could do with someone in America as due to Covid their not posting internationally at the moment of the super duper ones 😃

Yes you are probably right regarding the second hand value. Also because CG is a fairly new company (early 2000’s) I guess it takes a while to get a good reputation. I believe the early guns did have lots of flaws, weak joints, lose ribs etc.. And once those stories start it must be impossible to stop them. Unless you sponsor the best shot in the county (Oh they’ve done that as well) But like many shotgun manufacturers there best asset is their marketing department and us shooters are sucker for a good marketing campaign. So it’s really about putting your trust in a fairly new gun maker or trusting a long established one. You pays your money and takes your choice as they say.

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Charliedog
23 hours ago, Westward said:

Then again. A lad I used to shoot with bought a virtually unused Browning from his brother in law. The deal included the remaining 150 shells from the 1 and only slab his B-I-L had collected when he bought the gun new. Within another 500 or so rounds the misfires started due to pitting of the bottom firing pin. The local gunsmith (same one as in my post above) made up 2 new pins from silver steel. He said at the time that Browning/Miroku firing pins need to be custom fitted to the individual gun to achieve exactly the right protrusion; too much and they erode, too little and the strike is too light. I realise that they can also get coked up and do the same thing, but the reality is, a Browning can go 50K or 1K but sooner or later the firing pins - especially the bottom one - will erode and lead to FTFs.

Working as a ref for a number oy years I've seen dozens of FTF occur on O/Us and at least 19 times out of 20 it's been either a Browning or a Miroku.

really, its amazing they sell any guns based on your observation, always thought it must be more down to a spurious cartridge otherwise browning/mirokus would be misfiring all the time unless they somehow fix themselves for a number of shots and then break again?

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MrPhantom

Not really a big deal when the firing pins need replacing, a cheap fix if you know what you’re doing. Me, I don’t know what I’m doing so it was £45 to get the bottom pin replaced by local gunsmith on my Browning XS. That was after 13+ years of ownership and many 1000’s of rounds.

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Westward
17 hours ago, Charliedog said:

really, its amazing they sell any guns based on your observation, always thought it must be more down to a spurious cartridge otherwise browning/mirokus would be misfiring all the time unless they somehow fix themselves for a number of shots and then break again?

Mirokus are solid reliable guns that last for many years of hard use. No one's ever denied that, least of all me as I used to own one, but the firing pins, particularly the bottom one, are a weakness - even on B725s etc. There have been  hundreds of posts on shotgun forums, including here, on this very topic and it's no fun for those who start getting FTFs in the middle of a competition. That's why the dedicated users change pins regularly as it's a cheap and easy job.

The Americans often claim it's the hard European primers such as Cheddite, but the questions in my mind are why is it still happening after 50 years in production and why doesn't it happen on the Italian guns?

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Jan Powell
31 minutes ago, Westward said:

The Americans often claim it's the hard European primers such as Cheddite, but the questions in my mind are why is it still happening after 50 years in production and why doesn't it happen on the Italian guns?

It does although the majority of misfire issues prove to be cartridge related. As many manufacturers use the same case and primer combinations a misfire with more than one make of cartridge does not necessarily prove a gun fault.
 

Flame erosion of firing pins should never be an issue anyway as any competent gunsmith will change them as a matter of routine when the guns serviced.

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