Tighter chokes and bigger shot - long term improved accuracy?

[40UP]

Will get in touch with Nick T and try your suggestion! I read an article by an international trap shooter in which he suggested that most trap shooter were using choking that was really too tight. I think he said that 3/8, although he settled at 1/2 for his Perazzi, may even be a good first barrel choke for most people OT but the convention is 3/4... that is a big difference!

Hi John, Derek Partridge wrote that article in 1970 when we were still using 36gm for Olympic Trap and the '72 Olympics were won with 199/200. We are now using 24gm and that score has never been matched at the Olympics. This suggests there is more to guaranteed kills at OT than putting the shot in the right place.

 

[jwpzx9r]

Yes Ian I use 7.5's I suppose it really depends how good a shot you are regarding choke... or am I wrong again? Reason I say this is I was shooting UT, not OT I know but speed and distances are about the same, the other month and one of the French shooters was an international and I swear he was shooting the clays at 2/3 the distance I was ! He if he wanted to could have used a much more open choke I think. Convention drives a lot of what is done in shooting, I think, one of the points brought up in that article was the fact that cartridges have improved very much over the years but the same choking practices prevail and at UT and ABT you can use 28g of 7.5. I changed from 28g to 24g at UT without noticing any real difference in score... which probably says more about my lack of ability than anything else! 

 

[jwpzx9r]

Question answered by 40UP and Ian !

edit.

 Article 1981 target loads 28g but point still valid 40UP

 

[40UP]

http://www.olympictrapshooting.com/UpTightOnChoking.html

32gm from 1973

28gm from 1988

24gm from 1991

 

[Hamster]

http://www.olympictrapshooting.com/UpTightOnChoking.html

32gm from 1973

28gm from 1988

24gm from 1991

Thanks for posting this, I intend to read it fully when I have time but this bit is interesting for me as I've often felt that 7.5's seem to ride the wind better:

We had ascertained that a light load of skeet 9's would break targets out at forty yards, but Cordaro had made the qualification of not using them in a strong wind. Experiments had shown that strong winds could affect the smaller pellets, in their denser shot column, to point where virtually the whole pattern could be so blown; hardly a pellet would be found on the pattern sheet at forty yards. He had found that the same applied to even to 8's in similar conditions while 7 1/2's would still produce good patterns. 

 

[Hamster]

Hi John, Derek Partridge wrote that article in 1970 when we were still using 36gm for Olympic Trap and the '72 Olympics were won with 199/200. We are now using 24gm and that score has never been matched at the Olympics. This suggests there is more to guaranteed kills at OT than putting the shot in the right place.

At last, someone prepared to credit the bleedin obvious instead of fanciful rhetorics.  :dancing:   :good:

 

[jwpzx9r]

Hi 40UP seems to be some inconsistence in that article just read it and they were setting the gun up on 28 g loads for some reason?

Sorry on reading the article again and doing some detective arithmetic it would appear the gun was being made 1990 and then further modified thereafter ?

 

[no.1topdog]

Thanks for posting this, I intend to read it fully when I have time but this bit is interesting for me as I've often felt that 7.5's seem to ride the wind better:

We had ascertained that a light load of skeet 9's would break targets out at forty yards, but Cordaro had made the qualification of not using them in a strong wind. Experiments had shown that strong winds could affect the smaller pellets, in their denser shot column, to point where virtually the whole pattern could be so blown; hardly a pellet would be found on the pattern sheet at forty yards. He had found that the same applied to even to 8's in similar conditions while 7 1/2's would still produce good patterns. 

Just goes to show, this information has been out there for years, tried and tested through science theory and expert experimentation, but each new generation of shooters thinks they know better and have to challenge the facts.

Have you noticed that those that have been around a bit, shoot larger shot and tighter chokes? Some come to it earlier than others (Richard/George etc) and others stumble across it later in life.

Just think for a moment, and getting back on thread slightly, Richard doesn't use tight chokes and heavy shot on a whim. He knows it works because he has proved it to himself (and us!) many times over. What works on distant targets, as sure as hell will work with close targets, all the while giving vital feedback as we have discused here.

Just my opinion and observations however, but I will go on using what works for me, and if it's good enough for them too, well, you know the rest!  :biggrin:   I feel old now??

 

[ips]

Your right there Moore, different guns do seem to pattern differently even if choke is stated the same. For instance imo DT10 pattern tighter than even same choked beretta model such as 682e. I do not pretend to be a ballistic expert i can only state from personal experience but presumably the difference in pattern is effected by things other than choke, back boring and barell length maybe ? Only a guess but there are definitely differences between barrels imo.

Re shot hit statement, yes without a doubt there are times a target is hit but the little blighter doesn't break confirmation therefore that tight dense pattern is required at ot and abt, you may get away with it sometimes but !!!

 

[jwpzx9r]

40UP that is a different article to the one I am reading close reading and adding up years suggests this was writing some time around 1990 and the gun further modified choke wise after leaving perazzi.

http://www.bunkershooting.com/FineTune.html

 

[BoB1]

Are you allowed to shoot clays with 6,5 in England ?    They are too big,too fast and travel too far to shoot them at a clay comp. here.

I think at Beverley, 7 is the maximum. The bigger pellets make it through the trees, and into a crop-farmers land.

 

[iainspecialboy]

Just to throw something into the fire. Different choke manufacturers use the same names for different constriction. For example full choke is considered to be 40 thou and therefore half choke to be 20 thou. Briley consider full to be 35 thou whilst half is still 20 thou. The briley 3/4 is measured at 25 thou and 7/8 is 30 thou. So what briley consider 3/4 you might think of as 5/8. Are you all still with me?

By far the easiest way to sort it out is to pattern your chosen cartridge(s) with your gun and chokes and make your own mind up.

 

[Hamster]

I think choke is measured as relative to the bore size so the thou bit will vary from make to make. It is true of course that one makes half is another's LM etc, but personally I never strive for a given percentage but how they deal with the targets.

 

[Macc Ladd]

It's important to pattern your gun, my first lesson with Carl Bloxham we spent 45/60 mins patterning different chokes at different distances. So we got some idea on what is best for each scenario . If in doubt I just tighten up, it's all about being confident in your combination of choke and shell

 

[iainspecialboy]

Hamster, full choke is measured at 40 thou tighter than the bore diameter which is cylinder.

Eg:

Mirooook cylinder is .740 making full choke .700

My Perazzi is .736 (18.7) bore therefore full choke is .696

I think the choke constriction chart on the Teague website shows all major brands and bores. I can't link it though as I'm on an iphone.

 

[Jay]

3/4 and Full (fixed) for me with Clever 24 gramme 7's. Doesn't matter if it's calm or a windy day I'll still get second barrel kills as good as a first. I can shoot a good round of sporting too with the same set up if there's no Trap available and I want to shoot.

I would have thought that smokey kills would do more for confidence (and overall performance) than the flawed belief that less choke gives the shooter more of a chance of achieving more chippy kills and a better score!

I blame the shooting press, I only read them for the fixtures but there always seems to be an article about chokes when really the focus should be on the more important aspects of shotgun shooting - like shooting technique. 

 

[Hamster]

I would have thought that smokey kills would do more for confidence (and overall performance) than the flawed belief that less choke gives the shooter more of a chance of achieving more chippy kills and a better score!

Actually that's a bit of a misnomer, open chokes can and will smoke targets at their optimum range, open does't have to mean chippy in other words. What happens is that the pattern diameter is increased but at close / medium range the density within the pattern is still very high leading to impressive kills. 

You'd be surprised how chippy kills can be from a non centred Full choke.

 

[chippy]

I shoot very open chokes at sporting and trap and its because i'am not a very good shot.i've had an average of around 80% for 5 years now using open chokes.i have tried tighter chokes and my average drops by 10 to 15%.so i would say if your a good shot shoot tighter if not open up and chip away, you may win some cash.

 

[jwpzx9r]

This is turning into one of those very interesting threads that come around from time to time.

Just to hit on the different manufactures designation of choke size Muller say full/extra full is at 35 thou for my Browning and other guns. They say the calculated the constriction required by experiment, though they did not mention the make of cartridges used. Now this to me makes sense since if I got it right choke is a ratio of pellets within a given area at a given distance ? I don't see how you can put a constriction measurement against a required ratio across the board so to speak... or am I wrong yet again? Am I believing what some company say they have done tests to achieve their stated conclusions or is it market hype and smoke and mirrors?

 

[Danny 82]

I like to shoot Full & Full for sporting and Sk & IC for skeet.

I practice some times Full & Full on skeet and enjoy seeing clays disappear but when it comes to comps I'd always open up in skeet! Why disadvantage yourself, I'd have 100 chips over 99 balls of dust!

Sporting however, Full & Full always

steel 9's skeet

lead 7.5 sporting