Scientific approach vs. "feel" and subconscious learning....

[Nicky T]

I shot the Westfield 120 ESP Registered on Sunday and had a chance to test myself on some great targets. One particular stand (stand 1 I think) in the corner at the top had a pacey low right to left white clay that had a slight loop to its trajectory followed by a slower, but higher, left to right chandelle. The first target really got the better of me for the first three pairs; giving it what I thought it needed, then double that amount, then half the original amount.

On the final pair I thought I've got nothing to lose so I'm just going to stare at the clay and let the gun go wherever I put it, with complete disregard to the position of the barrels in relation to the clay. I absolutely destroyed it with one of the most convincing breaks of my round.

Clearly there were very different approaches used with varying results, but to put them into specific categories I would classify trying to use an exact amount of leed as "scientific" and forcing yourself to focus on the clay as shooting instinctively or with "feel". If I had to assess the round as a whole I would say my approach was probably 80% scientific and 20% feel; although the "feel" shots all resulted in broken targets whereas the scientific ones did not always.

What percentage of each approach (scientific vs. feel) does your shooting have?

A couple of weeks ago I shot Southdown with the split of approach between scientific/feel probably 20%/80%, with my overall score 20% higher than at Westfield. I have no doubt which approach is favourable, but I wonder what evidence there is (if any) of being able to learn sight pictures subconsciously whilst shooting instinctively? If none, is it commonplace to shoot scientifically in practice and hope that you can revert to instinctive shooting come the day of the competition?

 

[maddmatt]

Sub conscious method by concentrating your focus on the target, this will undoubtedly help your shooting and scores, what improves it further is learning to shoot different targets with different techniques. It is almost impossible to shoot every type of target with only one technique with any level of consistency (tin hat going on now...) Next shoot try the sub conscious 'feel' method on all the targets, remember to focus on the clay and nothing else, what have you got to lose

 

[DoubleBarrelledDon]

Go and shoot a few flushes, chances are you will shoot very well, mostly because you don't have time to "think" but your brain will usually subconsciously put you on the right track.  I know from my shooting that "engage brain" usually means "lost" ......... sits back and waits for the impending abuse to start.......

 

[RobertBeard]

So often I find that instinctive shooting is the way to break clays and as soon as I think about what I'm going to do then there is a great risk of missing!

Rob Eaton proved this for me by letting some clays go before I called Puuuuuulllllll and I still reacted to them and broke them.

Trouble is that getting into the cage sort of takes away any prospect of instinctive shooting!

 

[Mike]

Go and shoot a few flushes, chances are you will shoot very well, mostly because you don't have time to "think" but your brain will usually subconsciously put you on the right track.  I know from my shooting that "engage brain" usually means "lost" ......... sits back and waits for the impending abuse to start.......

 No abuse from me, what you've said is right.

John Wooley teaching novices http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OM_GcyMEZ1o just look at the clay.

 

[Docterduck]

Take the shot when it feels right not when it looks right.  The hard part is the battle in your mind.  It is the willingness to learn feel on all types of targets all the time.  Remember more often than not your first move IS your BEST move after that your debate the shot with yourself in mileseconds.

Cheers

 

[Nicky T]

I'm completely in favour of instinctive shooting, I'm more interested in what can be learnt (and retained) when using that approach?

 

[DoubleBarrelledDon]

again im opening myself up for abuse but......I have started shooting long crossers with a dead (stationary) gun, just go straight to a point on the path, keep staring hard at the clay and pull the trigger when it feels right....seems to work, though I do tend to get some funny looks when I do it.....(will have to get some Shotkam footage of it)

though if I was shooting a comp that mattered I would probably wimp out from using it....!

 

[Jaykaysea]

Having just changed guns I would say that the feel method only works if your gun fits perfectly and shoots where you are looking. In the last month since getting a gun that I am assured by those who know is, I have been trying to switch from scientific to trusting the gun and ignoring everything but the clay and shot a PB of 85 on Sunday (previous best 74) I find the concentrating for a whole round a lot harder but hey if I can get 85 I will be sticking with it.

Sorry if the gun fit point is an obvious one....I am a bit of a newbie contributing to a grown up thread here....

 

[Fuzrat]

Instinct and feel all the way for me, if I think I miss

 

[** Pending Removal **]

Take the shot when it feels right not when it looks right.  The hard part is the battle in your mind.  It is the willingness to learn feel on all types of targets all the time.  Remember more often than not your first move IS your BEST move after that your debate the shot with yourself in mileseconds.

Cheers

100% correct.

 

[** Pending Removal **]

Having just changed guns I would say that the feel method only works if your gun fits perfectly and shoots where you are looking. In the last month since getting a gun that I am assured by those who know is, I have been trying to switch from scientific to trusting the gun and ignoring everything but the clay and shot a PB of 85 on Sunday (previous best 74) I find the concentrating for a whole round a lot harder but hey if I can get 85 I will be sticking with it.

Sorry if the gun fit point is an obvious one....I am a bit of a newbie contributing to a grown up thread here....

Well done on the PB....!

 

[Salopian]

I doubt that anyone really uses a 'feel' to shoot a clay. What I think we all do is use co-ordination.

In clayshooting we have all learned about focus and movement, possibly during the course of our training we have experienced similar target presentations, maybe never actually shot them but certainly seen them and visualised the breaking of them.

Thus when confronted with a challenge we can harness our visual and co-ordination skills to break targets.

None of us could catch a ball or ride a bicycle but we learned the skills and  once learned can do it practically without thinking, but we are using numerous senses to do so. So we actually are using nature and science in harmony.

 

[Nicky T]

I like that outlook on the situation Peter and in essence that co-ordination is refined by continued practise.

 

[Salopian]

Nicky,

 Of course, practice does make perfect ............eventually, but it really does need to be practice with a plan and a structure. Strengthening our weaknesses and exercising our strengths. Once learned and deposited in the memory bank we can always call upon those resources as and when needed. It is when we don't have the experience, it becomes difficult as we have no knowledge to call upon. 

 

[maddmatt]

Yes and all this happens AND must happen in the sub conscious mind which gives you the 'feel', if you have to think to pull the trigger you will miss more then you will hit. When you learn to shoot everything is in the conscious mind and therefore feels awkward and usually accompanied by "how the hell do I hit that!" So at this stage practice helps take the skill from the conscious to the sub conscious mind. Once there you reinforce the skill every time you shoot, at this stage its actually easier to coach someone and to introduce new techniques.

 

[** Pending Removal **]

You cannot practice Helice :smile: you 'feel' the shot......true story...!

Talking of which......I am orf.....to do some 'feeling'....... :laugh:

 

[maddmatt]

You cannot practice Helice :smile: you 'feel' the shot......true story...!

Talking of which......I am orf.....to do some 'feeling'....... :laugh:

A1 again? Must give this ZZ Helice thing a go, how much is it and how much can I win? And to ensure its relevant to this thread, should I trust my sub conscious for my first go or is there any scientific advice you can give me?

 

[Hotshot100]

A1 again? Must give this ZZ Helice thing a go, how much is it and how much can I win? And to ensure its relevant to this thread, should I trust my sub conscious for my first go or is there any scientific advice you can give me?

I've never shot Helice but would like to give it a try. Looks like I will be making the trip to A1 myself shortly.