Rules

[Dog Tyred]

As a trappie I am unclear on the rules for sporting but with regard to the first target established bit (where it is possible to kill both targets with one barrel) would it not be a good idea to simply post the scoring rules on the cage at each stand? Therefore the shooter can read the rules before entering the cage. Save a lot of argibargie.

We rarely have qualified refs in trap but each line is scored/reffed by three people (shooters from the previous line) who are all required to watch every target so there is very rarely a dispute about a kill or loss. However there is occasionally a dispute about the rules (no bird, target impeded, mis-fire, etc) as the ref may not be aware of them all.

The main problem with trap is that very few want to take responsibility of being the ref as most will run for the abacus or score card. There are clear rules as to who should be the ref out of the three scorers but this is often ignored. Scoring on Sunday at the UT selection I was the least qualified of the three of us to ref (the other two were both international shooters) but I drew the short straw for all 8 rounds as the other two bolted for the abacus/score card!!

I guess the main problem with sporting is finding enough qualified refs who don't also want to shoot the competition?

DT

 

[Will Hewland]

Yes the problem is that in sporting you need 10-14 refs. They will never be shooters as they need to man their stand all day. The rules are few and simple, so no need to post on each stand. Just tell the bloody refs!

 

[ips]

In trap the most experienced of the 3 is supposed to be the ref but as Greg says few want to do it me included but only because by the time i have shot my brain is mashed.

 

[Dog Tyred]

I must admit I don't mind taking the button (good job really!). At least you don't get embroiled in disputes between the score card and the abacus (as happened twice during my reffing on the weekend ).

DT

 

[wynno]

I ref FITASC mainly and as Mr Lovett knows to his cost I DO enforce the rules, however a common sense approach is essential. Yes I will give a novice shooter some leeway, but that only extends to NOVICE shooters. 

In Wales we do have welsh speakers trying it on with some coaching, but a sharp word normally suffices, and anyway most shooters know me and know I won't take any crap.

See you all at the classis fitasc....Its going to be fun :fie:   :fie:   :fie:

 

[timps]

Unless you get some type of personality test for refs its always going to go on, knowing the rules doesn't stop them from caving in under immense  pressure from bullying shooters and their entourage.

Cheating goes on and will always go on, bullying refs into changing a miss to a hit I have seen quite a bit.

The other is gun malfunction/misfire, I have seen a few shooters attribute not releasing the trigger for the second shot, trigger freeze or accidently leaving the safety on as a misfire.

I did have this at the last FITASC I shot at Garlands, thought it was a misfire then looked at my gun to see the safety was on which is strange as I never use it. The ref was waiting to inspect my gun but just told him don't bother I can see the safety is on.

He was apologetic but firm, I already knew the outcome before he spoke so was never going to question it but his demeanour  made my incompetence more bearable. Any referee that is polite but firm gets my vote.

Having said that letting the ref fire your gun and you have no idea if he has a  shotgun certificate or the ground has an exemption in place creates  a conflict of interests. I know the chances of getting  caught are slim but breaking the law of the land to  not fall foul of the comp rules seems a bit of a conundrum to me, but I digress. 

 

[ips]

I recently witnessed a ref (not a shooter) stand his ground over an opened gun after a miss fire incident. He had obviously recently been to ref school and they had presumably taught him to stand firm which he did taking much abuse from the shooter, shooter chap eventually walked off the line in a great degree of frustration much to the relief of the ref. Trouble was said ref was clearly completely wrong with his decision, he had got the rules mixed up.

So the point is whilst i admire a ref who stands firm it does help a great deal if they actually know the rules.

 

[Darkside]

I recently witnessed a ref (not a shooter) stand his ground over an opened gun after a miss fire incident. He had obviously recently been to ref school and they had presumably taught him to stand firm which he did taking much abuse from the shooter, shooter chap eventually walked off the line in a great degree of frustration much to the relief of the ref. Trouble was said ref was clearly completely wrong with his decision, he had got the rules mixed up.

So the point is whilst i admire a ref who stands firm it does help a great deal if they actually know the rules.

Might as well give us the full story/description of the incedent...

Why did the shooter walk off the line? Just put you £ in an envelope and let the jury decide, no point getting upset, if you are sure the ref has made a mistake, ask him politely "are you sure?" Then if he stands by his decision and you are sure you are in the right...go to the jury, but no point making a ref'd life hell because he may have made a mistake

 

[maddmatt]

Well the trend was, 2 refs not even looking at the shooter to see if there was gun creep, they didnt even notice or say anything when one shooter shot the whole layout without glasses! Now this was an England selection shoot, it gets worse at registered shoots.

The issue is, and this is why I started the thread, should the rest of the squad say anything, so if a ref starts to tell what the targets are, or if a ref ignores an obvious gun mount before the target is called, yes Inhave seen that as well!

Steve, look forward to the Troy Foods Classic, registered or not, just make sure you put me in D class

 

[ips]

Problem was James that the young ref in question had a particularly aggressive attitude and would not listen to the explanation by the shooter or accept that his interpretation of the rule was incorrect. Everyone who witnessed the event agreed that the shooter was correct and the ref was clueless. I would rather not say who or were or outline the scenario openly but i will give you full story by pm if you wish.

 

[Steve Lovatt]

not a chance youre an A class shooter matt , or you are in this event 

 

[Darkside]

Ian, PM me then...

 

[andypandy]

I am a ref (sporting and trap) and have refereed at many major championships, my last big championship was the world UT at Southen Counties. It was then I decided no more big shoots!

The attempted cheating I witnessed was appalling and If I dared say anything the insults were disgusting!  Yes it was reported to the shoot organisers and warnings were issued but it really put me off.

Now I ref only at shoots that I know will look after their staff and support them!

 

[ips]

Ian, PM me then...

James pm won't send comes up with error ?
Edit

its gone now.

 

[ips]

I am a ref (sporting and trap) and have refereed at many major championships, my last big championship was the world UT at Southen Counties. It was then I decided no more big shoots!

The attempted cheating I witnessed was appalling and If I dared say anything the insults were disgusting! Yes it was reported to the shoot organisers and warnings were issued but it really put me off.

Now I ref only at shoots that I know will look after their staff and support them!

interested in what type of cheating at trap as this is very unusual.

Pm if you don't want to go public

 

[Hamster]

Well the trend was, 2 refs not even looking at the shooter to see if there was gun creep, they didnt even notice or say anything when one shooter shot the whole layout without glasses! Now this was an England selection shoot, it gets worse at registered shoots.

The issue is, and this is why I started the thread, should the rest of the squad say anything, so if a ref starts to tell what the targets are, or if a ref ignores an obvious gun mount before the target is called, yes Inhave seen that as well!

Steve, look forward to the Troy Foods Classic, registered or not, just make sure you put me in D class

In my opinion all rules and enforcements (and near certain ensuing arguments) should be left to the ref and no one else. This is what he/she is there to do, you and I are there to shoot our own targets, I just can't see why anyone should be that interested in whether someone else is shooting with or without glasses for instance. If you observe the better shooters they tend to keep their mind on the targets, if you spot any obvious cheating or pushing of the boundaries then by all means report it discreetly to the organisers but trying to dish out instant justice or even throw away remarks deliberately whispered loud will only serve to sour the mood. 

You have to remember the offender may well not be aware he's majorly at fault so can't necessarily be blamed if he/she turns around and defends themselves vocally.

 

[andypandy]

I wont discuss all the cheating I witnessed, but one stood out as particularly blatant, a foreign team manager was standing at the back of the layout with written instructions on A4 size boards, as his shooter moved from 5 to 1 he held up the instructions, if the refs looked around he hid the boards behind his back on his team clip board, I caught him because a shadow gave him away.  When challenged, lots of swearing, denying, insults and he then ran away!  

 

[andypandy]

Its also amazing how many shooters at registered events 'forget' that their glasses are on top of their hat!!

 

[Bryn12]

I can figure out most of the infringements mentioned but what is gun creep?

 

[maddmatt]

not a chance youre an A class shooter matt , or you are in this event

AA for the Classic sporting and B class for the Troy Foods Classic fitasc... No sand in my bag Steve...