Mandel Chokes

[Salopian]

On one of the threads I posted that 'Choke' was the invention of the Devil.

Let me explain.

Once you get into the histories and mysteries of choke, you are doomed to live out the rest of your life in Van Diemen's island. The land of the Devil, (actually Tasmania in reality).

There are quantifiable differences in choke constriction either in physical measurement or in pattern performance. But the real secret is finding a cartridge / choke combination that gives you success and then begin to enjoy your shooting. It will be another topic that normally disturbs your performance consigned to the waste bin.

Zoli have an enviable reputation for barrel boring, most Zoli users are very pleased with the patterns thrown by their guns.

I have a fixed choke B. Rizzini bored 1/4 & 1/2 that throws tremendously good evenly distributed patterns.

I normally shoot Miroku 3/4 & F fixed choke , four of my friends have bought the same and love them, can't change choke, don't change cartridges but hit a lot of clays.

Recently I have used a multichoke using 1/4 & 3/8's, have I felt handicapped on the long stuff? Not a bit. Have I felt confident on the close stuff?

Certainly.

Have I shot any better? I doubt it.

Because a lot of the shooting faults are in the head not in the choke or cartridge.

Always remember ' a hundred chips will always beat ninety nine balls of dust '

AJ used to shoot 3/4 & F but ended up using nothing more than half and loved 1/4 & 1/4.

 

[Mick.J]

You may find that 'nominal' bore sizes have increased by as much as .010" over the years to what they used to be. So it puts standard 'choke' measurements out the window.

Its actually the pattern thrown which counts at given set distances, regardless of bore diameter. Also different makes of gun pattern differently, so different chokes to suit, and unless regulated at the factory, each gun can also give different results. Also measuring your barrels at the end is not an accurit way to do it. There has to be some clearance for the chokes as they expand at a different rate to the barrels, and the top barrel usually gets hotter.

Personally just stick a pair in and shoot.

 

[Alan Maughan]

It would be good to get some ACTUAL facts on how these chokes perform before you put this guy out of business! Not everyone has a fortune to spend on chokes, a set of Brileys can be more than the price of some people's guns they're using.

They may well perform OK and pattern nicely but that is not the point I am making, the choke sizes are wrong relaitve to what they are claimed to be on the samples I looked at. If I buy a CYL choke I dont want a 1/4 if you get my drift?

 

[tiptop]

They may well perform OK and pattern nicely but that is not the point I am making, the choke sizes are wrong relaitve to what they are claimed to be on the samples I looked at. If I buy a CYL choke I dont want a 1/4 if you get my drift?

This can only be true if the choke set is not constricting at the right increments between CYL 1/4 1/2 etc. as we keep saying cylinder in one gun may well be 1/4 in another.

You say they are wrong, relative to what.

 

[Alan Maughan]

This can only be true if the choke set is not constricting at the right increments between CYL 1/4 1/2 etc. as we keep saying cylinder in one gun may well be 1/4 in another.

You say they are wrong, relative to what.

If you look closely at what I have already written you will see. If every choke size had been tighter than it should have been and by the same amount I could accept your point but it wasnt. Sometimes a choke was too tight, other times it was too slack, these were in the same set and sold for the same gun.

 

[Westward]

The real point Alan is that a ½ choke is not defined by measuring the bore/choke relationship. It is determined by the percentage of pellet strikes in a 30" circle at a nominal distance. I don't remember the details but there are plenty of American sites with descriptions of how to do it.

Personally I just bung in a couple of halves or similar and go shooting.

 

[Les53]

I'm not a fan of multi chokes, to me they can be as lethal as adjustable stocks and whatever. OK I know a lot of guys use adjustable this and adjustable that, but such things can be a fiddlers delight! Better to find what works, then leave well alone and just go out and shoot! Too much tinkering and too much thinking will not normally make anyone shoot any better at the end of the day!

 

[Alan Maughan]

The real point Alan is that a ½ choke is not defined by measuring the bore/choke relationship. It is determined by the percentage of pellet strikes in a 30" circle at a nominal distance. I don't remember the details but there are plenty of American sites with descriptions of how to do it.

Personally I just bung in a couple of halves or similar and go shooting.

I would tend to disagree with that Westy ( more from a technical perspective than practical experience) as its the only constant anyone can use to determine a difference. We are told that carts from maker to maker or plastic to fiber pattern so very differently and Im sure a ture 3/4 (.030" constriction) could be made to look like a 3/8 depending on the cart but that still doesnt change the fact its a 3/4 constriction. Im sure with the correctly matched cart it would act like a 3/4 with the right % of pellets in a 30' circle.

 

[Will Hewland]

To reiterate Alan; you will have lots of `fun` shooting cartridges and measuring `diameter` of pattern and even counting pellets if you like. I have loads of bits of cardboard that I have shot and made notes on. (Better than a pattern plate for recording results). Different cartridges, different range, different guns etc.

However, despite the vast differences between cartridges and chokes; the net result of whether you get a kill or a loss when shooting clays is negligible. Just remember that choke and cartridge `perfection` might find you an occasional kill; rarely more. This game is all about the Indian; not the arrow.

Cheers

 

[Alan Maughan]

I'm not a fan of multi chokes, to me they can be as lethal as adjustable stocks and whatever. OK I know a lot of guys use adjustable this and adjustable that, but such things can be a fiddlers delight! Better to find what works, then leave well alone and just go out and shoot! Too much tinkering and too much thinking will not normally make anyone shoot any better at the end of the day!

Something else I cant seem to get my head around Les.

Thinking and tinkering seem to be treat as 'spawn of the devil' on this forum yet how does the sport progress without it? The sport is constantly evolving and developing, this is as a result of different people within either manufacturing or competition constantly pushing boundaries. I can fully understand people adopting the attitude of 'bung 2 halfs in a shoot better' if they dont want to bother themselves with the more technical aspects of the sport but that doesnt mean its right.

 

[EdSolomons]

Westward is correct; choke is a performance not a measurement. Its what it chucks down range tht counts, not what the micrometer says.

It depends what your looking for Alan, if you enjoy the technical stuff more than the improving then fair enough (man i know do), but if you genuinely want to improve, you are far better keeping your gun fixed chokes for a good couple of years, keep to one shell, and put all time and effort into the shooting side of it. Trust me you will climb the ranks far quicker this way, if that is what you are looking to do of course.

A second gun in the cabinet is a bad thing if you are looking to improve.

 

[Alan Maughan]

To reiterate Alan; you will have lots of `fun` shooting cartridges and measuring `diameter` of pattern and even counting pellets if you like. I have loads of bits of cardboard that I have shot and made notes on. (Better than a pattern plate for recording results). Different cartridges, different range, different guns etc.

However, despite the vast differences between cartridges and chokes; the net result of whether you get a kill or a loss when shooting clays is negligible. Just remember that choke and cartridge `perfection` might find you an occasional kill; rarely more. This game is all about the Indian; not the arrow.

Cheers

I like your analogy Clever and most probably agree with it but then again those Indians spent quite a bit of time making sure the arrows were the best they could be. Im sure if he was asked William Tell would have said 'nobody hits many apples with bent arrows!

 

[Hamster]

The real point Alan is that a ½ choke is not defined by measuring the bore/choke relationship. It is determined by the percentage of pellet strikes in a 30" circle at a nominal distance. I don't remember the details but there are plenty of American sites with descriptions of how to do it.

Personally I just bung in a couple of halves or similar and go shooting.

Bingo :wink: . I totally understand what Alan's getting to but the advice he's getting is also technically sound. It really is nobodies fault, it just happens to have panned out this way. Too many gunmakers, too many different countries with erratic interior bore measurements relative to their designated multi chokes as supplied, if you purchase aftermarkets you simply have to go by that multi choke manufacturers interpretation of interior barrels etc etc.

What I think a lot of people are saying is microanalysis is less use than you may think. Buy a set of whatever make, CYL through to Full if you wish, then experiment with these on real targets, the chances are the CYL will throw open, 1/2 will be dense and Full very very tight. That's all that matters.

There is a so called table that is the blue print for choke performance, from memory CYL should throw 40% inside a 30" circle at 40 yards, going up by 5% increments to Full which SHOULD throw 70% ! It is academic whether yours or mine actually throw such patterns, it is certainly an exercise in futility wanting to chase such choke performance utopia because percentages will vary by 5% from shot to shot in any case. In the end what really matters (apart from the obvious of being on target) is to think of chokes as open, tight and tighter. This from a confirmed choke changer by the way .

 

[Les53]

Something else I cant seem to get my head around Les.

Thinking and tinkering seem to be treat as 'spawn of the devil' on this forum yet how does the sport progress without it? The sport is constantly evolving and developing, this is as a result of different people within either manufacturing or competition constantly pushing boundaries. I can fully understand people adopting the attitude of 'bung 2 halfs in a shoot better' if they dont want to bother themselves with the more technical aspects of the sport but that doesnt mean its right.

To be honest Alan, shotguns are much the same now as they were when John Moses made the first B25! OK there have been improvements in machining, tolerances and in materials used, but basically we still have smooth bored tubes, a trigger and some wood. The last real breakthrough in shotguns was the B25 and that was in the fairly early 20th century, there has not been anything really revolutionary since then. Shells are also still basically the same, but we now have plastic cases and wads and faster powder, but at the end of the day little bits of lead still go down the tubes as they always did. Shotgun shooting is nowhere near as technical as rifle shooting, because it doesn't need to be!

 

[Will Hewland]

Something else I cant seem to get my head around Les.

Thinking and tinkering seem to be treat as 'spawn of the devil' on this forum yet how does the sport progress without it? The sport is constantly evolving and developing, this is as a result of different people within either manufacturing or competition constantly pushing boundaries. I can fully understand people adopting the attitude of 'bung 2 halfs in a shoot better' if they dont want to bother themselves with the more technical aspects of the sport but that doesnt mean its right.

Alan, as I said in an earlier post; I WAS YOU when I started; convinced that clay shooters were missing something due to their ignorance. I come from Engineering / motorsport, where technology and R+D and tuning are king. It took me ages to shake my yearning to try and make shooting into motorsport. At first I was absolutely troubled by not being able to fit me and my gun with a data logger.

First thing to realise is that technology in this sport moves like a tortoise towing a truck. It took me a while to get my head around the fact that this was not a failing; but a characteristic of it. Jeez, we are only chucking pellets at ashtrays; how tricky can it be?

I have looked at all the `new tech` since I started. Almost all of it is desperate stuff trying to give the manufacturers something interesting to sell. The Browning Cynergy; high rib sporters and best of all; cartridges with new artwork on the cartons. Nothing has moved on because nothing is needed. Even the one big seller that everybody went for, Hidefspex, are cobblers really. They merely have a correctly shaped lense and comfy earpieces.

I wish technology and resource helped, because if it did I would be a serious worry to the big boys. It doesn't and I'm not.

It is NOT my place to tell you how to address your take up of this sport; I merely offer you the chance to not waste a ton of time thinking that you can engineer a result through anything other than coaching and lots of practice. How much have tennis rackets and tennis shoes come on in the last 15 years? Not much. Think of it like that.

Cheers

 

[Skeet UK]

The real point Alan is that a ½ choke is not defined by measuring the bore/choke relationship. It is determined by the percentage of pellet strikes in a 30" circle at a nominal distance. I don't remember the details but there are plenty of American sites with descriptions of how to do it.

Personally I just bung in a couple of halves or similar and go shooting.

Certainly...I am not a choke changer, bar perhaps popping a more open choke in for something real close...so I do not advocate having and using lots of chokes.

However, I have a multi choke gun. So it stands to reason for me, to having something in there that I deem to work. So for Allan, as he is of an inquisitive nature, this will suit him too. Clearly the R&D on these Mandel chokes, is not quite as thorough as other manufacturers...and I suspect this is reflected in the price.

Choke percentages 30 inch circle at 40 yards;

Cylinder .000 40%

Skeet .005 53%

Improved Cylinder .010 57%

Modified .020 67%

Improved Modified .030 73%

Full choke .040 75%

 

[Lesley]

What I think a lot of people are saying is microanalysis is less use than you may think. Buy a set of whatever make, CYL through to Full if you wish, then experiment with these on real targets, the chances are the CYL will throw open, 1/2 will be dense and Full very very tight. That's all that matters.

Hubby has Mandel Extended chokes and has never had a problem with them. Now we are both novices, so no words or wisdom really, but he uses them as many have suggested above, and finds they work perfectly for him.

 

[Will Hewland]

I think Smartie tubes would be OK if they were chrome lined.

 

[Alan Maughan]

Westward is correct; choke is a performance not a measurement. Its what it chucks down range tht counts, not what the micrometer says.

It depends what your looking for Alan, if you enjoy the technical stuff more than the improving then fair enough (man i know do), but if you genuinely want to improve, you are far better keeping your gun fixed chokes for a good couple of years, keep to one shell, and put all time and effort into the shooting side of it. Trust me you will climb the ranks far quicker this way, if that is what you are looking to do of course.

A second gun in the cabinet is a bad thing if you are looking to improve.

Ed,

I agree that choke can be performance based and I think in general the micrometer and the pattern will usally broadly agree. If I gave you a true 3/4 choke (from a measurement point of view) for your gun and a bag of carts that patterened at what you expected of a 1/4 or 3/8 then the fault lies with the cart not the choke surely? If you then changed cart and got a patterm more like you expected of a 3/4 then on that basis pattern performance cant be the only way to measure choke?

As for buying another gun I couldnt disagree more. The new gun moves so much better than old one which I guess should be the case considering its intended use versus a trap gun which by comparision now feels very sluggish. The fact that Im now shooting that bit wider than my old fixed 1/4 & 3/4 prior to which was 3/4 & full has given me lots of confidence, I can also go that bit tighter if I feel the need but didnt over the weekend.

Yourself and many others here have said its technique and whats in your head that kills the most birds and I wouldnt disagree with that, the fact is now that my technique is getting better by the day and my head is currently full of confidence, much of that coming from the new gun. A month ago I was scoring around 30-40% on 50-100 bird shoots, two weeks ago it was 40-50% over this weekend that has risen to 62% over 250 shots. I noticed a real improvement in those birds which are shot very quickly with little time to get on them at relatively close range, I put this down to the wider chokes and the faster handling of the shorter more responsive gun.

Maybe Im wrong and its just a peak I was heading towards anyway but either way its win win as far as Im concenred. I will always be a thinker and a tinkerer, I said that in my intro a while back but it doesnt change the main objective which is to be as good as I can be, even if I like to think about it.

I dont plan to chop and change guns all the time, the trap gun will get used for exactly that if at all.

 

[Alan Maughan]

1. Alan, as I said in an earlier post; I WAS YOU when I started; convinced that clay shooters were missing something due to their ignorance.

2. I merely offer you the chance to not waste a ton of time thinking that you can engineer a result through anything other than coaching and lots of practice.

Cheers

1. I sincerely hope the good clay shooters here dont think that I think this about them, if I have implied this then I appologise as its not what I think, it couldnt be further from the truth.

2. Again I think I have expressed a clear acknowledgement that structured learning from the right people and practise are king but if I feel I have any kind of engineering edge, no matter how deluded I may really be it will give me more confidence. I see ability and confdence as the key elements to success in any sport.