21 gram for sporting

[Will Hewland]

Surely the real test would be to take someone less skilled around and see how they manage with 21g versus 28g? The difference between 21g and 28g in seems non-existent when a AA+ shot uses them, but what difference does it make to a <C class shot?

With respect I don't get that? You need the AA shot for their consistency to prove the variable of the ammo. A beginner is too inconsistent to draw conclusions.
This 21g discussion has been had many times. It always get derailed by the (missing the point) argument of '21g isn't better than 28g'. Of course it isn't! There are fewer pellets so less killing potential in a very overall scenario. But this difference is very slight in practice, certainly nowhere near the percentage difference of pellets. The point is; if we all changed to mandatory 21g, how long would it be until we just forgot about 28g and found that our sport was absolutely fine..?

 

[ips]

With respect I don't get that? You need the AA shot for their consistency to prove the variable of the ammo. A beginner is too inconsistent to draw conclusions.This 21g discussion has been had many times. It always get derailed by the (missing the point) argument of '21g isn't better than 28g'. Of course it isn't! There are fewer pellets so less killing potential in a very overall scenario. But this difference is very slight in practice, certainly nowhere near the percentage difference of pellets. The point is; if we all changed to mandatory 21g, how long would it be until we just forgot about 28g and found that our sport was absolutely fine..?

exactly my two points will, we soon forgot 32g and few of us would go back to them either I would think

 

[Sian]

Surely the real test would be to take someone less skilled around and see how they manage with 21g versus 28g? The difference between 21g and 28g in seems non-existent when a  AA+ shot uses them, but what difference does it make to a <C class shot?

I can go some way to answering that as a very low C class shooter.   I decided to use 28g Power Blues on one of Steve's shoots (because stupid husband had brought home fibre version of my cartridge and I had a strop).   I did slightly better but only a touch.  It did make me feel quite confident using 28g but I am sure it was mostly in my head.  I think in my confidence I was swinging better, following through etc etc.  I did not keep using them because to be honest they do take it out of me a bit even the Power blues which were less thumpy than others I have used.  

I know the 21g can work extremely well, I myself have in a moment of pure unexplained magic,  hit a very fast and far away crosser at Southdown several times in a row when my "A" class husband was using 28g and should have got more than me but did not and I was told by the ref  that AA class shooters had struggled with it so it can be done with less skill and less grams.

Even knowing that I have moved on (when I can blinking well get them) to 24g Evos - why?   I have no idea - scores not really changing much but I have convinced myself I like them and for that reason alone I am happy and not stroppy.

 

[Les53]

exactly my two points will, we soon forgot 32g and few of us would go back to them either I would think

True.......and to be honest I don't really think I would even go back to 28grm in a hurry mate! I've got so used to 24grm now.

 

[Will Hewland]

I can go some way to answering that as a very low C class shooter. I decided to use 28g Power Blues on one of Steve's shoots (because stupid husband had brought home fibre version of my cartridge and I had a strop). I did slightly better but only a touch. It did make me feel quite confident using 28g but I am sure it was mostly in my head. I think in my confidence I was swinging better, following through etc etc. I did not keep using them because to be honest they do take it out of me a bit even the Power blues which were less thumpy than others I have used.

I know the 21g can work extremely well, I myself have in a moment of pure unexplained magic, hit a very fast and far away crosser at Southdown several times in a row when my "A" class husband was using 28g and should have got more than me but did not and I was told by the ref that AA class shooters had struggled with it so it can be done with less skill and less grams.

Even knowing that I have moved on (when I can blinking well get them) to 24g Evos - why? I have no idea - scores not really changing much but I have convinced myself I like them and for that reason alone I am happy and not stroppy.

I totally get the 'but I had a better day with the red ones than the blue ones, so I am buying more red ones'. That happens to all of us, but that happens within different cartridges of the same shot weight..

 

[ips]

This 28 v 24 v 21 debate will go on forever I fear, last few weks I have shot 24 through 1st barrel and 28 in 2nd no conclusion reaced as yet but certainly getting rid of my 1k stock of 28's

 

[ips]

I totally get the 'but I had a better day with the red ones than the blue ones, so I am buying more red ones'. That happens to all of us, but that happens within different cartridges of the same shot weight..

and other things to will. I once shot really well with a particular hat on and shot in same hat for about 25yrs till it fell to bits 2 yrs ago, funny how my form fell at the same time and I have only just realised whilst typing this.

 

[Sian]

I totally get the 'but I had a better day with the red ones than the blue ones, so I am buying more red ones'. That happens to all of us, but that happens within different cartridges of the same shot weight..

I know I know all in my head.   It's funny really I shoot with a man (the hubby) who is relatively good, definitely stylish in his shooting, subject to really bad days sometimes but in all this whether he shoots his beloved Kemen or his Pogo stick semi - he only ever shoots the cheapest shells he can buy on many disciplines ESP, ESK, DTL, UT, ABT, OT, DT and his scores are always consistent and fairly high whether it be the Kemen or the Pogo stick and regardless of perceived quality of cartridge.  He will happily use up the odds and sods at home, 21g, 24g or 28g and still be happy.   He is a great believer in "it's where you stick it" that counts - in all sporting activities!

 

[ips]

Hubby is lucky that he has acheived a mental state of just shoot the ruddy thing, a state of mind I have yet to reach

 

[Les53]

This 28 v 24 v 21 debate will go on forever I fear, last few weks I have shot 24 through 1st barrel and 28 in 2nd no conclusion reaced as yet but certainly getting rid of my 1k stock of 28's

I tried mix and match for a while, but always with 28 grm. I used Trap 200 bottom and Thunder Gold in the top. But I noticed no real difference in scores so went back to Trap 200 in both tubes, also because Thunders cost a fortune back in those days, I think Trap 200 were about £100 per K and Thunders were about £160 per K. The good old days mate! 

 

[ehb102]

good point liz however would the lack of consistency of a c class shooter effect the results ?

Well, in the examples given the AA shooter had no real improvement. Two targets on reentry could just be having shot the course before.  Therefore surely it's the inconsistent C class shooter who will benefit from the extra few pellets? I mean, aren't people saying that 28g are better because they have more pellets around the edges? If you can break anything with a 21g by putting it in the right place then it's the numpties who should be shooting heavier loads and top shots should be on 21g as a point of pride.

 

[Les53]

Hubby is lucky that he has acheived a mental state of just shoot the ruddy thing, a state of mind I have yet to reach

Ian just get rid of the 28's and tell yourself that they are no longer available! Also remind yourself that those top blokes on the ISSF shooting thingy are only using 24 grm, so 24 grm CAN do it if you put 'em in the right place. I missed 28grm for a few weeks after changing to 24's, but I watched those top guys and thought to myself......oh well those shells can do it......so the rest is down to me! What I did'nt miss was the wallop! At the time 24 grm came out I think I had been on the old RC2 Blue 28's for some time due to Winchester supply issues, I went onto 24grm Excels and it was like shooting sub sonics as far as recoil was concerned! Yes I tried others, but at that time Excels seemed the best.

 

[Hamster]

Well, in the examples given the AA shooter had no real improvement. Two targets on reentry could just be having shot the course before.  Therefore surely it's the inconsistent C class shooter who will benefit from the extra few pellets? I mean, aren't people saying that 28g are better because they have more pellets around the edges? If you can break anything with a 21g by putting it in the right place then it's the numpties who should be shooting heavier loads and top shots should be on 21g as a point of pride.

Or it could just mean he had a blinder of a round with the lesser cartridge ? If you have a shoot restricted to 21g someone is still gonna win with a great score, that is simply the reality of it, what people were quick to hide was that a good few people turned in scores that were a few shy of their norm too.

The second oft repeated phrase serves little with all respect because 5 gram of shot in the right place will do the job too as will a single size 6.5 ! There is nothing wrong with 21g but as Will has said it isn't the equal of more shot because it cannot be.

 

[Hamster]

With respect I don't get that? You need the AA shot for their consistency to prove the variable of the ammo. A beginner is too inconsistent to draw conclusions.

This 21g discussion has been had many times. It always get derailed by the (missing the point) argument of '21g isn't better than 28g'. Of course it isn't! There are fewer pellets so less killing potential in a very overall scenario. But this difference is very slight in practice, certainly nowhere near the percentage difference of pellets. The point is; if we all changed to mandatory 21g, how long would it be until we just forgot about 28g and found that our sport was absolutely fine..?

Very true, the difference in scores is not 25% but more than 2% in my experience, when I shot these on good ESP rounds I came to the conclusion thay left up to about 5 birds out there. There were many people who said they were going to give them several months trial on reg shoots but nothing ever materilised !!

 

[Darkside]

Very true, the difference in scores is not 25% but more than 2% in my experience, when I shot these on good ESP rounds I came to the conclusion thay left up to about 5 birds out there. There were many people who said they were going to give them several months trial on reg shoots but nothing ever materilised !!

That sounds more like 5% to me then!?!? Unless you left 5 "out there" on a 250 bird course...

 

[ips]

Hammy that makes sence, a vry experienced friend of mine who will remain nameless told me 28g is worth 1 extra target per line of 25 at OT

 

[Hamster]

Hammy that makes sence, a vry experienced friend of mine who will remain nameless told me 28g is worth 1 extra target per line of 25 at OT

Such is the nature of life and mans bravado that very few are willing to admit there is a tangible difference between 21g and 28g.

Admit they won't but they carry on using the bigger load which subtly tells me they know what they prefer.

 

[Hamster]

That sounds more like 5% to me then!?!? Unless you left 5 "out there" on a 250 bird course...

Yes about that, I mentioned 2% in reference to Madmatt.

 

[Les53]

Hammy that makes sence, a vry experienced friend of mine who will remain nameless told me 28g is worth 1 extra target per line of 25 at OT

Yes and he knows his stuff too. Which is why I don't understand why some classes of shooters can still use 28grm for OT at some events. It could be said that such a thing gives an unfair advantage to lesser shooters, but I have not heard about any of the top boys moaning about it anywhere have you?

 

[ips]

Reading this very interesting thread has got me thinking I wonder if the quality of the cartridge ie the consistency and a good pattern possibly even the speed is more imposrtant than the load, is it possible or indeed feasable for a mfr to make a carteridge of 21 or 24 perform as good or is the obvious lack of lead ultimatly the deciding factor ?