Sporting Rule

[Salopian]

What is the Rule?

You arrive at a stand , shoot a few pairs but hit none because the clays are difficult and not flying exactly the same.

You stop , ask the referee for your card back and leave the stand .

You then go back to the stand later , re-shoot the targets and hit all eight.

What should have been the score ?

 

[Will Hewland]

What is the Rule?

You arrive at a stand , shoot a few pairs but hit none because the clays are difficult and not flying exactly the same.

You stop , ask the referee for your card back and leave the stand .

You then go back to the stand later , re-shoot the targets and hit all eight.

What should have been the score ?

Lovely rhetorical question Peter. Come on, name and shame.. 

 

[ColinD]

How can you hit all eight, the refs already marked your card on your first attempt hasn't he  

 

[jasper]

 

[Steve1066]

I am going to watch this thread with interest!

 

[westley]

I actually experienced just this when refereeing at a Sporting shoot. It was a raised stand and the first clay of a report pair, quartered in down a ride between the undergrowth and bushes. If you shot that clay early, it was a simple enough target, but, if you left it a bit late, the clay emerged into a clearing and a strong crosswind caused the clay to deviate. A group of 6 shooters came to the stand. I showed the first shooter a report pair and we begin. The 5th shooter on is going straight, but on his final pair, left it late and the wind caught the clay. This caused him to miss. He immediately claimed a 'no bird', I did not accept that and called a loss. It developed into a bit of a debate between the group and myself. I stood my ground. Off they went mumbling and moaning. Some 2 hours later the group re appeared and asked if their 'hero' could shoot the stand again. "Of course" says I, and he handed me his original scorecard. He straighted the stand. I congratulated him and gave him the card back. He remonstrated once more about his card not being altered by me. I referred him back to the shoot organisers to lodge his complaint.  He never did, he just picked the wrong Ref.  

 

[Salopian]

Colin D , 

No he remonstrated with the referee and had his original 4 scores deleted.

If he misses he regularly calls 'no-bird ' and asks for them again.

We know of another 'top shot ' and have watched him have numerous shots at a club shoot / mark your own  until he hits eight out of eight.

My ruling on the original post would be 0 ex 8 .

Referees decision is final,  end of . 

What is your interpretation of the rule?

 

[MartynB]

The correct response  at a mark your own club shoot should be “oh well ,  if that had been a real woodcock I couldn’t have asked it to fly past again  .  ‘ .   If you ask your peer group for a no bird , they should say ‘ blind tw*t take up knitting or yell Tosser or such other merry comment  “ .
FFS , the day shooting becomes so serious it’s time to give it up . I presume the miscreant was entered for a cash prize not birds only ?  

I truly feel sorry for the type of people who have to behave in that manner , it’s not ‘ gamesmanship ‘ it’s just cheating pure and simple . 
 

 

[Westward]

Assuming this is a serious post... The ref should mark the hits/misses, enter the stand score on the card, sign the card and finally enter the score on the master sheet before handing the card(s) back. Then the cheat can't reshoot the stand later for a new score.

 

[Doctor Lecter]

 competition is competition  you cant shoot a stand  twice  or that would be 108 clays     rules are rules      

 

[jonz]

So much cheating in sporting clays is one of the reasons I left the CPSA and don’t shoot their registered events. The ground owners need to stop using youngsters as refs and have qualified refs who are strong enough to stand up to these cheats.

 

[Will Hewland]

So much cheating in sporting clays is one of the reasons I left the CPSA and don’t shoot their registered events. The ground owners need to stop using youngsters as refs and have qualified refs who are strong enough to stand up to these cheats.

I assume this has to be an inexperienced ref that is being taken advantage of. 

 

[Westward]

So much cheating in sporting clays is one of the reasons I left the CPSA and don’t shoot their registered events. The ground owners need to stop using youngsters as refs and have qualified refs who are strong enough to stand up to these cheats.

I've sometimes seen bullying of refs and I've seen people leave the stand knowing the junior ref made a mistake scoring no birds by not establishing the 1st bird as a miss. But OTOH I've also seen people correct that exact mistake by explaining the correct procedure to the junior ref.

I must have been lucky as the only other form of cheating I can recall seeing or experiencing has been chip begging, although some genuinely mistake the wad for a chip.

 

[ColinD]

Colin D , 

No he remonstrated with the referee and had his original 4 scores deleted.

If he misses he regularly calls 'no-bird ' and asks for them again.

We know of another 'top shot ' and have watched him have numerous shots at a club shoot / mark your own  until he hits eight out of eight.

My ruling on the original post would be 0 ex 8 .

Referees decision is final,  end of . 

What is your interpretation of the rule?

Ah you didn't say remonstrated with the ref first time but as I said before 'How can you hit all eight, the refs already marked your card on your first attempt hasn't he'

Hasn't any other shooter challenged him on this if he's regularly doing it

 

[jasper]

So this person has been reported to cpsa?. 

Then again......

Jasper

 

[westley]

So this person has been reported to cpsa?. 

Then again......

Jasper

I doubt that would achieve anything. Some of the big competitions are won, regardless of rule breaking  !

 

[Jan Powell]

I actually experienced just this when refereeing at a Sporting shoot. It was a raised stand and the first clay of a report pair, quartered in down a ride between the undergrowth and bushes. If you shot that clay early, it was a simple enough target, but, if you left it a bit late, the clay emerged into a clearing and a strong crosswind caused the clay to deviate. A group of 6 shooters came to the stand. I showed the first shooter a report pair and we begin. The 5th shooter on is going straight, but on his final pair, left it late and the wind caught the clay. This caused him to miss. He immediately claimed a 'no bird', I did not accept that and called a loss. It developed into a bit of a debate between the group and myself. I stood my ground. Off they went mumbling and moaning. Some 2 hours later the group re appeared and asked if their 'hero' could shoot the stand again. "Of course" says I, and he handed me his original scorecard. He straighted the stand. I congratulated him and gave him the card back. He remonstrated once more about his card not being altered by me. I referred him back to the shoot organisers to lodge his complaint.  He never did, he just picked the wrong Ref.  

Far be it from me to comment on this ‘hedgie’ stuff but well done on standing your ground. Some of the skeet shooters I meet shoot sporting competitions occasionally and the one topic that gets them all going is the cheating that exists within the discipline. By all accounts it’s not even subtle.

If he misses he regularly calls 'no-bird ' and asks for them again.

I think I know who you mean!

 

[leighH]

Peter

I thought it was a rather rhetorical question at first, but are you asking - does the shooter after say 3 pairs of 5 have the right to take their card from the Referee and come back to complete at a later time? Its not really directly addressed in the rules, but there are some circumstances where it would be permitted e.g gun breakdown (General rule 2.34 & 2.35), obviously a trap breakdown and I would argue any other situation where a competitor could not continue e.g taken unwell. However in the case of stopping shooting because the shooter does not fancy it, then they have been duly notified to shoot and do not carry on receive a 2 target penalty and can only complete the stand at the discretion of the Jury ( Sporting rule 24.15). They are also in violation of General rule 2.6 as they have 10 seconds to call for their subsequent shot.

Complete re-shooting of the stand would only be allowed if for some reason the targets on that stand completely altered and done so with permission of Jury. So score is 0/8.

On the question of bullying it takes determination to resolve, mentoring inexperienced by Referees to be confident in their decisions and making sure they are supported by other shooters & Staff as far as possible is the key. Don't let the perpetrators get away with anything and tackle it head on.

Mind you some experienced Refs don't help the cause its although they are buttoning for a Corporate day, allowing shooters extra pairs after a stand (illegal practice Gen rule 1.6) or even worse not stamping out coaching (general rule 2.15) just adds to the feeling that shooters are getting away with things in competition. Firm but fair.

Regards

Leigh

 

[Will Hewland]

Yeah rules are rules. If you don’t like the rules, campaign to get them changed but today is today. My mate takes the Mickey out of me because I will occasionally ask the ref if they were happy that the clay was regular, or if I really missed it, but I won’t ever press the matter when they say no. For one thing, if you get wound up about it you’ll almost certainly shoot worse on the next few stands.