Seeing Lead - your thoughts

[Wonko the Sane]

What do you mean ? A Blair?

I think he's writing with a Northern accent

Churchill was famous for and an advocate of 25" side by sides with little choke, one can imagine the above method as being adequately useful on 20 yard game but it's never going to work on todays clays or the better presented live birds.

Worked fine for me on clays, ZZ's, and flyers and still does to to the extent that my decrepitude allows   :hunter:   I've killed crossing flyers at +/-50yds and never saw the lead.....    and anyone trying to see the "lead" on a flyer is working at being superhuman

Of course I use massively longer 28" barrels.

After much experiment and observation, my advice for most people would be to use the subconscious method in most circumstances within normal ranges. If you sustain vision on the bird’s head or beak, you will certainly unlock phenomenal powers of subconscious hand-to-eye coordination.

I'll not contend that I have phenomenal anything but my meager and limited skill experience is with Mr. Yardley.  Not to mention his gun fit methodologies.

 

[ips]

Good luck with that... :bye:

so presumably your saying gun speed cannot impart lead. Surely swing through method is exactly that, if it was not then why not use maintained lead. As I have alluded to before I think trap shooters approach the shot with a totally different mindset. Having said that mr Churchill one assumes never shot trap and his method is exactly mine (and I suspect mr wonko, and of course many others) one size does not fit all ?

Precisely. Gunspeed along works for very little lead targets. (Even then it's a crap method). Try gun speed alone on a 60 yard fast battue..

well it works on a 45 degree (ish) 80 metre (speed) trap target ?

ps

anyway its a brave man that says Churchill, Yardley and bidwell to name but a few are wrong.

 

[jwpzx9r]

This is quite honestly what separates me from these quite phenomenal shooters. I read keep your bead on the birds beak and always keep your bead on the leading edge/ top edge of the clay! I just try like F to get somewhere in front of the thing and let it have it. I was shooting UT on Sunday nearly every target I broke was pulverised on the first barrel but I can honestly say I have no idea why I hit them, certainly saw no lead, ... other than I have done it that way before?? The one target that does stick in my mind was one of the ones I missed. I did not see any lag behind the target but even as I took the shot I knew I was behind it... and so it worked out honk! In one round I had 21 first barrel powdering's and never once did I have the perception of lead I just knew it was time to squeeze the trigger. I think that is why I will never be any great shooter I just trust to tried and tested  luck all the time. I just don't know how anybody can actually break a target by somehow keeping the bead on the front edge or whatever and that is probably why I am just a bang average shooter who has some really good rounds and then has some really ordinary rounds. 

 

[Will Hewland]

I leave you to it IPS.. but no modern Sporting shot of any note would agree with you on the long targets. Shooting 15 feet ahead, around an arc, cannot be done without seeing the gap. I'm out now. 

 

[ips]

This is quite honestly what separates me from these quite phenomenal shooters. I read keep your bead on the birds beak and always keep your bead on the leading edge/ top edge of the clay! I just try like F to get somewhere in front of the thing and let it have it. I was shooting UT on Sunday nearly every target I broke was pulverised on the first barrel but I can honestly say I have no idea why I hit them, certainly saw no lead, ... other than I have done it that way before?? The one target that does stick in my mind was one of the ones I missed. I did not see and lag behind the target but even as I took the shot I knew I was behind it... and so it worked out honk! In one round I had 21 first barrel powdering's and never once did I have the perception of lead I just knew it was time to squeeze the trigger. I think that is why I will never be any great shooter I just trust to tried and tested  luck all the time. I just don't know how anybody can actually break a target by somehow keeping the bead on the front edge or whatever and that is probably why I am just a bang average shooter who has some really good rounds and then has some really ordinary rounds. 

john

one only needs to watch the likes of Fernandez (at least the old one) for proof that fast targets can be shot with no conscious input only pure instinct. I bet the one you missed behind was the only one you were trying to hard to hit ?

I leave you to it IPS.. but no modern Sporting shot of any note would agree with you on the long targets.

I couldn't possibly comment my friend. I was just glad to find at least a few shooters of note that had written about "not seeing any lead"

would be interesting to talk to bidwel, I thought he was at the top not that long ago and was considered quite handy.

maybe the modern method of teaching (as in to be aware of lead) is a kind of safe default position for coaches, but not taking into account those people not blessed with the mathematical brain to compute how long a five bar gate is (and impart that lead fast enough before the target disappears behind a tree) and have to rely on "instinct"

 

[paul b]

If someone threw a pound coin to you would you use swing through, maintained  or pull away.?your putting shot where a clay will be like your putting your hand where the coin will be,using subconscious and peripheral vision,you couldnt catch things untill you learned but now its done without thinking.

 

[balltrap]

Having shot sporting for many years the amount of lead of any target I am fully aware of, but fast trap that I have shot for many years I see no lead its the speed of the gun swing that counts. You have to be in front of any target but to me its the way you should shoot the discipline, Sporting you have more time to judge your lead fast trap you do not .

I have always shot maintained lead at sporting.

 

[Westward]

so presumably your saying gun speed cannot impart lead.

I'm not saying that or anything like it. What I am doing is asking how you decide what adjustment you need when you've missed a clay and don't know how much lead you applied. It's amazing how quickly 4 pairs slip away while you're fumbling around trying to hit the things.

 

[ips]

I'm not saying that or anything like it. What I am doing is asking how you decide what adjustment you need when you've missed a clay and don't know how much lead you applied. It's amazing how quickly 4 pairs slip away while you're fumbling around trying to hit the things.

instinct, gun speed.

An analogy

a world class tennis player facing a big server. Does he wait to see were the ball lands and then mathematicaly work out the height it wil bounce and were to place his racket in order to return said serve. ?? Or does he use instinct. If he misses and now faces another serve does he think "my racket was two inches to high on the last one, I shall adjust accordingly, or does he put faith in his instinct once again. ??

 

[balltrap]

instinct, gun speed.

An analogy

a world class tennis player facing a big server. Does he wait to see were the ball lands and then mathematicaly work out the height it wil bounce and were to place his racket in order to return said serve. ?? Or does he use instinct. If he misses and now faces another serve does he think "my racket was two inches to high on the last one, I shall adjust accordingly, or does he put faith in his instinct once again. ??




 

All of the time you have to think lead at sporting, instinct is for fast targets with experience

 

[Sian]

Westward, The brain and eyes are wonderful things they learn and retain information so judging what lead you need comes with memories formed  of hitting lots of targets.  Some people can just know and literally aim at a spot to shoot their targets.  They already know the lead.  Maintained lead is probably the hardest of all methods to master.  We all learn at different speeds, someone better than me missed a target at Westonwood because he hadn't learned to insert the gun, he had no idea until shown.  We probably all fall back on our favourite methods but we should learn all of them because they all have their place and it takes time.  There is also no standard lead for a particular target people see very different lead but there is a general sense when something needs next to nothing or huge amounts.

 

[ips]

I appreciate that esp "can" be a premeditated shot. I am not saying that the churchil method is better than any other merely that there are folk (like me) who cannot do maintained or even "see lead" and have to rely on instinct. Anyway what about game ??

sporting is in no way a replication of game as you can watch other folk shoot the target you are going to shoot at, you cannot with game, or trap for that matter.

 

[move-mount-miss]

john

one only needs to watch the likes of Fernandez (at least the old one) for proof that fast targets can be shot with no conscious input only pure instinct. I bet the one you missed behind was the only one you were trying to hard to hit ?

I couldn't possibly comment my friend. I was just glad to find at least a few shooters of note that had written about "not seeing any lead"

would be interesting to talk to bidwel, I thought he was at the top not that long ago and was considered quite handy.

maybe the modern method of teaching (as in to be aware of lead) is a kind of safe default position for coaches, but not taking into account those people not blessed with the mathematical brain to compute how long a five bar gate is (and impart that lead fast enough before the target disappears behind a tree) and have to rely on "instinct"

Just wondered why you say John Bidwell doesn't see lead?

I'm aware he says that the "X-factor" determines the lead but not heard him say he doesn't see it.

I'm not arguing I'm genuinely curious.

 

[Sian]

I appreciate that esp "can" be a premeditated shot. I am not saying that the churchil method is better than any other merely that there are folk (like me) who cannot do maintained or even "see lead" and have to rely on instinct. Anyway what about game ??

sporting is in no way a replication of game as you can watch other folk shoot the target you are going to shoot at, you cannot with game, or trap for that matter.

Ips I'm a slasher, I like gun speed a lot but there are lots of targets where you have to use other means in ESP.  

 

[Hamster]

If someone threw a pound coin to you would you use swing through, maintained  or pull away.?your putting shot where a clay will be like your putting your hand where the coin will be,using subconscious and peripheral vision,you couldnt catch things untill you learned but now its done without thinking.

Depends, if the coin was thrown at me within reach of my arm span then hand & eye co-ordination is sufficient. If the coin was thrown at a rising angle 45 yards away then I would defo need a more sturdy plan and it would more than likely involve launching myself way ahead of the sweet catch spot.

 

[ips]

another quote this time from mike Yardley....

Churchill suggested – and it caused much misunderstanding and controversy – that one might apply lead subconsciously if one kept one’s eyes on the bird and trained one self in certain footwork and mounting drills. It was as if one was shooting at the target. His technique is arguably more instinctive and buys time.

Should one see lead consciously or subconsciously? Robert Churchill, Major Ruffer and John Bidwell would say subconsciously. Stanbury’s approach was more deliberate. After much experiment and observation, my advice for most people would be to use the subconscious method in most circumstances within normal ranges. If you sustain vision on the bird’s head or beak, you will certainly unlock phenomenal powers of subconscious hand-to-eye coordination.

move mount miss

I refer you to this Yardley quote re Mr bidwell

Ips I'm a slasher, I like gun speed a lot but there are lots of targets where you have to use other means in ESP.  

"in esp" yes . Thing is from my limited experience of esp many targets seem to be set as some sort of trick shot. I have shot "at" sixty yard crossers that were virtually unhittable and I doubt any responsible shooter would "have a go" if it was feather. Maybe this discussion should differentiate the method used for esp and that for feather. ???

 

[move-mount-miss]

So you're not quoting John Bidwell you are quoting Mike Yardley's interpretation of John Bidwell?. 

 

[EdSolomons]

60 yard targets can be consistently broken by club level shots repeatably and regularly with no trick shooting involved once they are shown the correct approach.

60 yard game no problem and very responsible if tooled accordingly. If I shot straight at any of my game I wouldn't hit too many...

as per Will, I'm out!

 

[Darkside]

I couldn't possibly comment my friend. I was just glad to find at least a few shooters of note that had written about "not seeing any lead"

would be interesting to talk to bidwel, I thought he was at the top not that long ago and was considered quite handy.

maybe the modern method of teaching (as in to be aware of lead) is a kind of safe default position for coaches, but not taking into account those people not blessed with the mathematical brain to compute how long a five bar gate is (and impart that lead fast enough before the target disappears behind a tree) and have to rely on "instinct"

Ips, your examples of people writing about not seeing lead on sporting clays/game shooting are pre 3D clays (that don't just fly on a straight horizontal line) and 20-30yd bird pheasant shooting, where they don't need much lead!!! 

John Bidwell may have written about move-mount-shoot...but I've watched him, he didn't shoot move-mount-shoot when I was watching him!!! 

p.s. Bidwell can still shoot!!!

 

[ips]

james

you know that I respect your opinion and your experience of clay and more importantly game. I see your point and I accept it. It seems that I am right about modern esp the targets are now different (as are game bird presentation, apparently)

cheers

ps

doesn't change the fact that I cant see lead ?