Rules
- Thread starter maddmatt
- Start date
Help Support :
N
no.1topdog
Guest
In every registered competition I would expect the rules to be followed to the letter. I would expect every referee to be a qualified CPSA referee in the discipline concerned. We all know this is not the case which is why we are still amateurish in our approach.
If they are not then it points to a lack of training, knowledge and understanding, or blatant favouritism or cheating.
I thought things had changed during my absence from the Association but they have not. :biggrin:
If they are not then it points to a lack of training, knowledge and understanding, or blatant favouritism or cheating.
I thought things had changed during my absence from the Association but they have not. :biggrin:
Bryn12
Well-known member
OK I'm a long way off even considering going for consideration but I would expect refereeing at selection shoots to be as per international standards.
So at what point do you raise this with the powers that be? The shoot itself was excellent, good targets and layouts, some of the ref'ing was non existent. Issue is, if it is raised with say the CPSA and it leads to something being said, then at the next event they struggle to get ref's, what then?
N
no.1topdog
Guest
Therein lies the problem that has always been evident.
I wish I knew the answer, but I don't run the grounds and I don't pay the wages. However it does dismay me every time I shoot registered (Sporting)
From observation the refereeing standard in Trap and Skeet disciplines is normally far higher, but Sporting is left to own devices. Unforunately i only shoot Sporting now and it effects me. I have become immune to commenting on this at shoots as I have better things to do than whack my head against a brick wall. :biggrin:
The other problem is, this is something that is getting worse, its one thing to have lax standards at a normal registered shoot but when it's a selection shoot you have to wonder. At least the GB selections have a Chief Referee so standards are usually better. I don't know what the anser is either, just thought I would see what others thought....
Bryn12
Well-known member
Is just a case of cutting the tiros in 'D' & 'C' some slack for a minor infringement while they learn the ropes or is it more serious and in the higher classes? 'B' and above should be well aware of the rules.
Will Hewland
Well-known member
Financial reality.. Refs at a normal reg are mainly keen amateurs or even disinterested amateurs just doing it for the few quid. So, the least good of this lot won't know the rules well and won't care enough to have a ruck enforcing them if they do.
From most shoot owners point of view, they won't want to pay qualified refs perhaps and also, won't want to offend customers. For example enforcing rules such as not coaching friends or calling a lost target for leaving the safety catch on.
For the record, I would love to have pukka refs enforcing rules pretty firmly. And to answer the question; YES it should be done properly at selection and other higher level shoots.
From most shoot owners point of view, they won't want to pay qualified refs perhaps and also, won't want to offend customers. For example enforcing rules such as not coaching friends or calling a lost target for leaving the safety catch on.
For the record, I would love to have pukka refs enforcing rules pretty firmly. And to answer the question; YES it should be done properly at selection and other higher level shoots.
Last edited by a moderator:
Firstly, this is an expensive hobby.
I doubt any of us want to spend £100 and have a tyrant scoring.
We want to enjoy a shoot, but we want fair refereeing , unbiased and not allowing cheating, or an advantage to any competitor.
The real issue is no one wants to pay a fair price for qualified referees.
I think we do need to raise standards and enforce the rules fairly and even handedly. Sadly we have people in authority who do not know the rules themselves.
FITASC Sporting is possibly the one discipline that suffers most from poor rule enforcement, both from a competitors and an organisers point of view.
But all that being said, I think that with enthusiasm and diplomacy, most disputes can be resolved.
I doubt any of us want to spend £100 and have a tyrant scoring.
We want to enjoy a shoot, but we want fair refereeing , unbiased and not allowing cheating, or an advantage to any competitor.
The real issue is no one wants to pay a fair price for qualified referees.
I think we do need to raise standards and enforce the rules fairly and even handedly. Sadly we have people in authority who do not know the rules themselves.
FITASC Sporting is possibly the one discipline that suffers most from poor rule enforcement, both from a competitors and an organisers point of view.
But all that being said, I think that with enthusiasm and diplomacy, most disputes can be resolved.
Sal, this is why I mentioned the selection shoots, surely at an event like these the standrd hs to be higher? These were not minor infringements by D or C class shooters, they were by people who should know better and have a chance of making the team!
If there is a perceived problem then we need to have the details before making any meaningful comment or contribution, otherwise we're just agreeing to something we don't really know or understand. What actually happened ? It is quite possible that those assumed to have done wrong will either read it here or be told about it by friends so will amend their ways, same could apply to the refs who may be given a friendly nod by the ground owner/organiser or other shooters who are on good speaking terms with them.
If we want something fixed we need to know details, some things aren't quite life or death matters after all.
If we want something fixed we need to know details, some things aren't quite life or death matters after all.
Shaun Hopkins
Well-known member
Always going to be a tough problem to iron out due to so many variables, some Refs are very friendly and almost to laid back whilst others can be quite the opposite both knowledgeable as far as rules are concerned but tend to interpret and enforce in a different ways and then you have the ones who really are quite useless.
Would like to think at this level shooters would raise any issues at time of shooting if he or she feels the ref may have missed something that could lead to an advantage or disadvantage.
Would like to think at this level shooters would raise any issues at time of shooting if he or she feels the ref may have missed something that could lead to an advantage or disadvantage.
P
** Pending Removal **
Guest
Well I stopped shooting ESPand FSP as a serious discipline years ago because i could not stand seeing the various forms of cheating.....in UK and abroad.
Good refs are essential.....and they need balls to reinforce the rules (but they have to know them first) and they need support of the ground and shooters when they reinforce the rules.
Shooters have seen various forms of cheating in the past and done nothing.
Bad reffing has no place in the sport either...
But that is sporting for you.......sometime people get it right some times they don't.
Good refs are essential.....and they need balls to reinforce the rules (but they have to know them first) and they need support of the ground and shooters when they reinforce the rules.
Shooters have seen various forms of cheating in the past and done nothing.
Bad reffing has no place in the sport either...
But that is sporting for you.......sometime people get it right some times they don't.
Last edited:
Steve Lovatt
Well-known member
matt you my opinion on rules , they should be adhered to in every shape and form , the one big problem we now have is that the qualified refs we do have are too friendly with the shooters and feel sometimes they cant warn people or call no bird
i must say the ground owners must crack down on this and as i tell them all on a reg or selection shoot i want it done right , shooters should also know better they all talk about they want it right and fair until it comes to them shooting and then certain individuals will push boundaries
letters on menus and waiting points , dont get me started !!!!!!
please note i have it on good authority that because the troy classic fitasc is not reg or an international event i can do what i want , so all target descriptions will be back on the boards ,result
i must say the ground owners must crack down on this and as i tell them all on a reg or selection shoot i want it done right , shooters should also know better they all talk about they want it right and fair until it comes to them shooting and then certain individuals will push boundaries
letters on menus and waiting points , dont get me started !!!!!!
please note i have it on good authority that because the troy classic fitasc is not reg or an international event i can do what i want , so all target descriptions will be back on the boards ,result
Bryn12
Well-known member
have to say I'm a bit baffled as to HOW you can cheat other than 'coaching'
N
no.1topdog
Guest
It seems it is too much to ask for qualified and efficient referees on all registered sporting shoots then? Personally I think it should make no difference if it is The British Open or a Sunday Registered as your scores are all recorded and go towards your ranking and qualification for County or National teams and awards or prize money.
Can you imagine this situation in any other professional sport such as Golf, Tennis Boxing or Athletics? Keen, unqualified amateurs having a go? I think not.
We will never portray a professional appearance until we can compete within the guidelines laid down by the Governing body, but as Salopian said, if the Governing body are unsure or unaware of the rules and their enforcement, what hope do we have?
I would like to point out that this is not a critisism of all referees as there are some very good, knowledgeable and efficient ones out there, but having 8 out of 12 on a Sporting Course makes the whole exercise pointless and unbalanced. :biggrin:
Can you imagine this situation in any other professional sport such as Golf, Tennis Boxing or Athletics? Keen, unqualified amateurs having a go? I think not.
We will never portray a professional appearance until we can compete within the guidelines laid down by the Governing body, but as Salopian said, if the Governing body are unsure or unaware of the rules and their enforcement, what hope do we have?
I would like to point out that this is not a critisism of all referees as there are some very good, knowledgeable and efficient ones out there, but having 8 out of 12 on a Sporting Course makes the whole exercise pointless and unbalanced. :biggrin:
Will Hewland
Well-known member
The single biggest error on scorecards comes from refs not understanding the first bird established rule and/or the sim pair establishing rules. We have all benefitted from this on occasion. Trouble is, you can correct the ref, but they will be crediting other shooters for the rest of the day. I have sometimes taken a few minutes to explain the rules to refs.
And I have seen several refs who seem to want to record a kill when it's a clear loss. A few weeks back, I was the only person in my group of four NOT to get a freebie or two (as I stupidly only missed one).
And I have seen several refs who seem to want to record a kill when it's a clear loss. A few weeks back, I was the only person in my group of four NOT to get a freebie or two (as I stupidly only missed one).
I always find it annoying when I notice a card being marked without attention to whether the hit/loss was first or second target. It does not have any bearing for me because I am never in a position to have my score counted back to see who might win but I do think of those at the very top who may miss out on count back because their card was not scored correctly.
