Guns with adjustable combs

[jwpzx9r]

I agree Ian even though my knowledge is limited I rely on gun speed to carry me through to the target and shoot it. I still though like to see what I am shooting just above the bead when I take the shot. I am not aiming but I defo use the bead to decide when I want to squeeze the shot off. Its like the brain says target  and bead in correct place fire now I think I miss quite a few due to not having enough gun speed at the point of squeezing the trigger!

 

[ips]

I think I miss quite a few due to not having enough gun speed at the point of squeezing the trigger!

john, with respect imo this is due to not being fully commited to the shot or not being fully confident however you want to say it. Lack of confidence with ones ability on the day will generally result in a miss from my experience.

 

[Wonko the Sane]

My not having any desire to argue is based on simple facts and not suppositions.  Bio-mechanics, simple geometry, and physics are not actually amenable to opinion.  Much like where the sun rises each morning.

Whatever your motivation for having a gun fitted, comb height being a major component of that process, if your goal is the view over the gun and not the POI then you are faced with accommodating the gun's geometry rather than modifying the guns's geometry to accommodate yours.  I absolutely admire those of you who can adapt to a gun shooting wherever.  I know that I cannot and the adjustable combs allow me to fix the POI where it does not require any correction factor to put the pattern on the target.  The gun shoots where I look - period.  Just for ref I'd refer you to the old Churchill guy that built the guns with the same name.  He wrote several books on the topic of shooting.  Seemed to think that having a gun that shoots where you look was important.  He used a try gun to adjust the POI so the gun would do just that - not to make a pretty view.  Oh, yeah - why would anyone bother with a try gun if those adjustments didn't really do anything?  Just wondering.

But there is one small downside to the gun not shooting where you look.  There will always be that semi-conscious consideration of allowing for whatever correction factor is required.  And there will always be those occasional targets that just don't get the right correction and you miss.  And totally aside from losing the target, that seems to me to be steps on the path to flinching big time - second guessing when it's time to shoot.  Besta luck on that one.

On those chokes - pretty much standard Perazzi trap chokes.  Even with the skeet gun, factory Tula chokes, the 24gm loads pattern like a hammer.  On the plate at 24yds that gun/load has about a 20" pattern.  On the skeet field if I center the target, not a common happening sad to say, from anywhere it is smoke.  With the trap guns even the 5/10 first barrel will smoke half a target, usually the back half, also sad to say.  24gm loads are intense performers.  OT folks kill with 2nd barrels at nothing less than insane distances with them simply because of how they pattern.

This has been really fun.  Not as much fun as listening to the BS ATA shooters hold as gospel, and I mean nothing compared to the world of magik the electric guitar/amplifier people live in.  Thanks for the laffs.

Charlie

 

[** Pending Removal **]

Ah hahahahaha well said Charles. Hope you have a great jolly Christmas xx

 

[ips]

Shoots were you look, correct hence my statement re flat rib. So yes I agree.

 

[Hamster]

Whatever your motivation for having a gun fitted, comb height being a major component of that process, if your goal is the view over the gun and not the POI then you are faced with accommodating the gun's geometry rather than modifying the guns's geometry to accommodate yours.  I absolutely admire those of you who can adapt to a gun shooting wherever.  I know that I cannot and the adjustable combs allow me to fix the POI where it does not require any correction factor to put the pattern on the target.  The gun shoots where I look - period.  Just for ref I'd refer you to the old Churchill guy that built the guns with the same name.  He wrote several books on the topic of shooting.  Seemed to think that having a gun that shoots where you look was important.  He used a try gun to adjust the POI so the gun would do just that - not to make a pretty view.  Oh, yeah - why would anyone bother with a try gun if those adjustments didn't really do anything?  Just wondering.

Charlie

Charlie,

You may have misunderstood the point I was making regarding getting used to the gun, when you make what are essentially very minor changes to adjustable comb heights the POI does not radically alter so there is no conscious allowances being made, rather just your senses adjusting to the feed back you'll get from breaks and gradually bedding-in to the set up, much like what happens when picking up a new gun.

Regarding try guns, I would be amazed if more than a handful of the worlds best have ever had one in their hands let alone used it as a fitting tool. To all intents and purposes scatter guns shoot where you look BUT that does not mean you can shoot them all equally well. Where it shoots is one thing but HOW it shoots for you is what sets one gun apart from others for YOU. 

Lastly regarding old books, there are more than a few gems contained therein that could robustly be called plain wrong or if feeling generous called dated.

 

[Wonko the Sane]

Charlie,

 To all intents and purposes scatter guns shoot where you look BUT that does not mean you can shoot them all equally well. Where it shoots is one thing but HOW it shoots for you is what sets one gun apart from others for YOU. 

That is about as mystical as anything I've ever heard.  The adjustable combs on my guns can move the pattern from point of aim (dead flat) to easily a full pattern high.  I'm sure they are nothing special in that regard and the actual adjustment distance is not all that much so small mods can make large differences.  Perhaps I'm just too sensitive to those things.

IMHO the only thing that could possibly be considered "wrong" as set out by Churchill is his shameless pimping of his 25" barreled guns.  If you look around you will find that his shooting techniques have been periodically re-discovered by the majority of "experts".  I make no case for his having invented anything but he certainly was a leader in producing a practical presentation.  Damn nice guns too.

I have to get back to working up a new spell for a helice gun so it will attack a target even if I'm too slow to do it myself.  Prolly see y'all at the World's with it.

Charlie

 

[jwpzx9r]

Good for you Wonko whip up a good one !

 

[Hamster]

That is about as mystical as anything I've ever heard.  The adjustable combs on my guns can move the pattern from point of aim (dead flat) to easily a full pattern high.  I'm sure they are nothing special in that regard and the actual adjustment distance is not all that much so small mods can make large differences.  Perhaps I'm just too sensitive to those things.

IMHO the only thing that could possibly be considered "wrong" as set out by Churchill is his shameless pimping of his 25" barreled guns.  If you look around you will find that his shooting techniques have been periodically re-discovered by the majority of "experts".  I make no case for his having invented anything but he certainly was a leader in producing a practical presentation.  Damn nice guns too.

I have to get back to working up a new spell for a helice gun so it will attack a target even if I'm too slow to do it myself.  Prolly see y'all at the World's with it.

Charlie

No standard gun does that, ever, that would take some doing even for a fully tricked up gun with an adjustable rib / floating barrel a' la K80 etc. A full pattern high means 30", are you sure you meant to write that ?

I wasn't specifically referring to Churchill but since you mention it yes, the 25" period must have been fun for him, convincing people who knew next to nothing about shotguns to buy them for hi..........gh pheasants. Today (not to mention for the last 25 years) the 32" is rightly considered the right tool with many preferring the 34". Was it he who advocated a square stance too ? That seems to have fallen by the wayside as well.

What I meant by to all intents and purposes scatter guns shoot where you look is that it is easy to get them to do that if you know what to buy and how to set it up, but that still doesn't mean you'll score high with it because unfortunately there is more to it than POI alone and I'm not talking about the skill side.

 

[** Pending Removal **]

Bwaaaaah.... Mistletoe ...!

 

[ips]

I think a lot of this is down to wording and interpretation. We all know that we want our guns to shoot were we look that is a given how you accomplish this is the key to this discussion imo. Raising comb even a fraction will lift the poi a little that is fact but i think i speak for hammy (correct me hammy if i am wrong) and myself when i say the amount of difference this makes in the reality of shooting a clay rather than a pattern plate is questionable. If you raise the poi via the comb and use the bead as an aiming tool then yes the poi has been raised but who does this in fast disciplines ? If you raise the sight picture via the comb in order to get a better view then you are by definition looking above the barell and floating the clay, so in the latter scenario you have raised sight picture, poi was raised as a consequence.

 

[ips]

Ps

watching front view of top ot shooters on issf it would appear to me that most if not all shoot a very flat rib and therefore one assumes a 50-50 or near enough poi. Why guess and have to shoot under a target when you can shoot at it ?

 

[Hamster]

Ps

watching front view of top ot shooters on issf it would appear to me that most if not all shoot a very flat rib and therefore one assumes a 50-50 or near enough poi. Why guess and have to shoot under a target when you can shoot at it ?

A good many top ESP shooters seem to like a highish rib sight picture but I doubt they have to make a conscious allowance to shoot under things.

 

[ips]

Again i think this is all dependant on if you use the bead as a reference point or you are looking above the barrel. I am of course only talking from my perception of my trap shooting.

 

[jwpzx9r]

I think a lot of this is down to wording and interpretation. We all know that we want our guns to shoot were we look that is a given how you accomplish this is the key to this discussion imo. Raising comb even a fraction will lift the poi a little that is fact but i think i speak for hammy (correct me hammy if i am wrong) and myself when i say the amount of difference this makes in the reality of shooting a clay rather than a pattern plate is questionable. If you raise the poi via the comb and use the bead as an aiming tool then yes the poi has been raised but who does this in fast disciplines ? If you raise the sight picture via the comb in order to get a better view then you are by definition looking above the barell and floating the clay, so in the latter scenario you have raised sight picture, poi was raised as a consequence.

Ian I am having a great deal of difficulty trying to understand what is being said about the raising of point of impact. Now I am not totally stupid but try to stick with me and then please put me right and I say that to all on the thread.

If I take my gun and mount it as normal then bring my cheek down onto the stock as I do the barrels will point in x direction. If I take the gun and raise the comb by what ever amount and then close my eyes and mount my gun as before the gun will still point in x direction. If I now open my eyes and look forward the gun still points in x direction. If I then look across the rib at the bead the gun still is pointing in x direction the only thing that has changed is the position of my eye over the rib and in relation to the bead. Now I have heard so many times that some never even look at the bead , rib or indeed their barrels ... they know where they are and don't need them they only ever look at the target so for them nothing at all in theory has happened !? Indeed if I take the same gun and give it to three different individuals who are of vastly different stature by the convention being used the POI changes without even touching the comb at all... it really just too early for me to understand all this malarkey

 

[jwpzx9r]

With all due respect Ian shooting anywhere is by that definition the same guess... if you are guessing that you are two inches below you are also guessing you are bang on.

 

[ips]

If you raise the comb and use the bead as a reference then the barrels are not pointing in the same direction as before you raised the comb as the angle of the barrel has been altered and it is now pointing up more, this is my whole point, poi will only be altered if you use the bead if you do not use the bead all you have done is raise your ssight picture the poi has been raised as a consequence. Your aiming point is now above the barrel as is to some degree the poi therefore you would effectively have to shoot under a low trap target to hit it unless of course you have no perception of the bead whatsoever this I do not like hence flat rib for me. I emphasise again that this is my perception and the way I describe it, other may describe defferently. In reality noneof this actually matters if you are hitting the target then the gun is correct and or you have adapted to it. Over analysis can be damaging.

 

[** Pending Removal **]

Montecarlo stock anyone....? Raise it all you want.......barrels still on the same line

 

[jwpzx9r]

Nic, Ian I am not trying to argue my case simply try to understand what is being said... but still argue a wee bit and I think Nic has hit on my point ... not pun intended. Perhaps I am thinking about things in totally the wrong way but to me at least its not so much that the attitude of the gun has changed, in my mind it has not, however what a shooter sees if they use rib and bead in conjunction with the target has. It may sound stupid and be splitting hairs but to me the gun stays the same and the shooter sees things differently because his eye is higher off the line of the barrels, if the shooter has to shot lower to hit the target it is not because it is actually pointing at a different angle it is because he or she is seeing the target differently than before, I must add I am assuming the comb is parallel to the line of the barrels. Oww my brain is beginning to fry, is this situation just a play on words and / or concept 

 

[ips]

I say again it is imo a lot to do with if you actually use the bead. If you do not then i do not personally consider that mm adjustment of poi is that relevant. Having said that it will imo matter more with high rib guns as the bead and or muzzle is more in view by the very nature of the rib as it is not really possible not to be aware of a great big ladder on your barrel