Well I guess its time that the issf and the manufacturers got their heads together on this! To simply penalise a shooter is really not on. There must be a way to ensure that no overweight shells get through quality control.
European Championships Olympic Disciplines
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Wonko the Sane
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Or simply require that all carts be purchased on the grounds from a certified source. Proof of purchase takes it out of the shooter's hands. Clearly it should not be the shooter's responsibility to insure the integrity of the carts but lacking any control of any kind doesn't really leave an option. As it is now who knows where they come from or what's in them even if they are purchased on the grounds.
To be fair if DK is sponsered by Clever, which I think he is, then he has to accept responsibility for the cartridges even though he did not have anything to do with the manufacture. When you are part of a team you have to accept every part of the process. I remember years ago a Honda world superbike rider being excluded for a race result because a test of the fuel used to power his machine was found to be out of spec even though Honda said it came from an unopened drum supplied to them by one of their sponsors Shell... what could he have known or done about that?
As to testing of cartridges. This is a sport where one target out of 155 could win you the championship I think the have to be absolutely ruthless in the testing even if it is one cartridge, agree the testing should all be done in the open though.
As to testing of cartridges. This is a sport where one target out of 155 could win you the championship I think the have to be absolutely ruthless in the testing even if it is one cartridge, agree the testing should all be done in the open though.
Wonko the Sane
Well-known member
"agree the testing should all be done in the open though."
Absolutely! Who is certifying the testing personnel, process, and equipment? Who watches the watchers?
Absolutely! Who is certifying the testing personnel, process, and equipment? Who watches the watchers?
To be fair the actual mass range they are measuring is not that very demanding in terms of the accuracy and precision, to be honest a decent set of kitchen scales would not be far off the mark, BUT the balance still has to certified as being able to make the measurement properly and the testing process should be totally transparent.
I still think though that in the interest of the sport these tests should be absolutely rigorously applied. I would like to know what the testing procedure actually is. Do the for example take pot luck on one cartridge or do they take ten and test for the one or two that are over the range? I know it is very unlikely but if it is a single lucky dip if a competitor is willing to take the chance they could put a 50 /50 mix of 28g and 24g in their pocket and hope for the chance to come out I their favour
. But let us be clear these shooters are so good three or four pellets extra is very unlikely to make a difference to whether the target breaks or not... but there is a good chance you could catch someone who is actually trying to cheat by having a special load!
Talking of cartridges here is an interesting link http://www.bbc.co.uk/guides/zq8mhv4 .... exactly the same effect can be observed when applied to cartridges only with cartridges there is no testing or published data the manufacturers just tell you they are good ! Want to sell a very ordinary cartridge for a better price change the colour of the case and height of the brass hey presto put the price up.
I still think though that in the interest of the sport these tests should be absolutely rigorously applied. I would like to know what the testing procedure actually is. Do the for example take pot luck on one cartridge or do they take ten and test for the one or two that are over the range? I know it is very unlikely but if it is a single lucky dip if a competitor is willing to take the chance they could put a 50 /50 mix of 28g and 24g in their pocket and hope for the chance to come out I their favour
. But let us be clear these shooters are so good three or four pellets extra is very unlikely to make a difference to whether the target breaks or not... but there is a good chance you could catch someone who is actually trying to cheat by having a special load!Talking of cartridges here is an interesting link http://www.bbc.co.uk/guides/zq8mhv4 .... exactly the same effect can be observed when applied to cartridges only with cartridges there is no testing or published data the manufacturers just tell you they are good ! Want to sell a very ordinary cartridge for a better price change the colour of the case and height of the brass hey presto put the price up.
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40UP
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Skeet shooters have the most potential for doctored cartridges and I still have no information why they are seen to load from different pockets when shooting crossing targets at 20yds. Some years ago one international skeet shooter when challenged started to throw unfired cartidges downrange. Probably not the best response to a panic.
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Wonko the Sane
Well-known member
I think the skeet people just carry so many carts and always shoot them all that they need both pockets. Back in the day, the Chinese and the Russians had wonderfully complicated sets of carts, one for each shot at each station. I think it was prolly the cube shot or the aluminium cloud that finally put the end to those games and made spherical lead the stipulated requirement. But it could be that there are adventurers still hahaha
And like John says, a couple extra pellets don't mean squat - - - unless you think it does :wink:
And like John says, a couple extra pellets don't mean squat - - - unless you think it does :wink:
Just watched the Maribor Junior Trap men's finals on Youtube and after all the shooters were announced to the crowd the announcer then tells everybody that the junior Czech shooter has been disqualified after the cartridge check !! The young lad is then shown a red card and calmly walks off the line and into the grandstand and five take there positions? WTF?
Surely there must be a better way than let the lad take his position in the finals line up to then be told in public 30 seconds later that he has been disqualified??
Never known a championship like it for disqualifications. And how come Jessica Rossi didn't get DSQ as well as from what I understand she had a cartridge problem as well?
DT
Surely there must be a better way than let the lad take his position in the finals line up to then be told in public 30 seconds later that he has been disqualified??
Never known a championship like it for disqualifications. And how come Jessica Rossi didn't get DSQ as well as from what I understand she had a cartridge problem as well?
DT
Two points for me at least are that the shot mass rules should be rigorously perused and that it is equally important that the results of the tests are transparent and made public. If you look at the case DT has highlighted unless you know the outcome of the tests you could think the shooter was wilfully cheating, whereas his cartridges may just have been badly loaded by the manufacturer. Another issue I have is that many shooters are sponsored and get their cartridges supplied others have to buy theirs. This may sound weird but I have no real sympathy for the sponsored shooter who's cartridges are over mass but the other guy I view differently for some reason. I feel that he/she has been sold substandard goods... the sponsored shooter is shooting those cartridges for a manufacturer and in effect being paid for it. Just my take on it though.
Just looking at a box of Clever T4's the box is covered in medals and proclaims the cartridges have won 129 gold medals and many other indicators that these are the ones to use ... no where does it state that they conform to any internationally agreed standard for shooting competition?? So in effect these are mustard but we don't warrant that they are acceptable for the competitions we highlight they have won so tuff luck if they are over mass!
Just looking at a box of Clever T4's the box is covered in medals and proclaims the cartridges have won 129 gold medals and many other indicators that these are the ones to use ... no where does it state that they conform to any internationally agreed standard for shooting competition?? So in effect these are mustard but we don't warrant that they are acceptable for the competitions we highlight they have won so tuff luck if they are over mass!
Wonko the Sane
Well-known member
"Never known a championship like it for disqualifications. And how come Jessica Rossi didn't get DSQ as well as from what I understand she had a cartridge problem as well?"
I can't imagine anyone DQ'ing Jessica Rossi for anything. I mean, ................................
I can't imagine anyone DQ'ing Jessica Rossi for anything. I mean, ................................
