DTL Bisley

[Dog Tyred]

Nic

Thanks for clarifying that.



Right then, question two. While I was scoring yesterday one shooter fired at and hit a 'No Target' (broken clay). I called No bird and allowed the shooter to call again and he duly hit the next target. However having checked the rules it says

9.21 A "NO TARGET" is to be declared and another target allowed, PROVIDED THE COMPETITOR HAS NOT FIRED:

9.21.3 If the target is irregular.

9.21.4 In these cases, if the competitor fires at the target, the result shall be scored, subject to the Referees ruling.

As the competitor fired should I have counted the broken target as a hit or does this come under 'Referees ruling'? If he had missed the No bird do I count that as a loss because he fired at it? So when is it acceptable to allow a new bird to be called if the shooter fires at a no bird??

Bit of a thread hi-jack I know.

DT

 

[** Pending Removal **]

Good technical question and not covered in the rules....

You see if a shooter has double hearing protection like plugs and cans....they will not hear the ref call no bird (or blanked ones like mine....i can never hear a thing even when they are all swearing at me ).....and therefore auto pilot will have taken over meaning that they shoot at it - and may hit or miss. My feeling is that once the ref has called 'no bird' then it should not matter whether the shooters goes on auto pilot and hits or misses it.....it has in fact already been declared a 'no bird' and therefore should always be bird again whether hit or missed. (Don't forget that these rules are written by $%"&wits and have been rewritten up and down dale like a hankathon )

After all a bird that comes out broken is not flying correctly and therefore it does not matter if it is hit or not.

 

[Dog Tyred]

Assuming of course that the ref is awake and calls the no bird promptly rather than after the competitor has shot??

Fingers crossed I don't get anymore of those next time I'm reffin!!

DT

 

[Les53]

Good technical question and not covered in the rules....

You see if a shooter has double hearing protection like plugs and cans....they will not hear the ref call no bird (or blanked ones like mine....i can never hear a thing even when they are all swearing at me ).....and therefore auto pilot will have taken over meaning that they shoot at it - and may hit or miss. My feeling is that once the ref has called 'no bird' then it should not matter whether the shooters goes on auto pilot and hits or misses it.....it has in fact already been declared a 'no bird' and therefore should always be bird again whether hit or missed. (Don't forget that these rules are written by $%"&wits and have been rewritten up and down dale like a hankathon )

After all a bird that comes out broken is not flying correctly and therefore it does not matter if it is hit or not.

Like.( run out of little wotsits)

 

[40UP]

Hi DT, broken target is a "no bird" so is invalid whether you fire at it or not so is taken again. Real problem comes with slow release where the shooter refuses the target by removing the gun from his shoulder [he may not track the target before refusal] so becomes referee's judgement. In this case the shooter accepts the target if his fires a shot. Baulk is difficult for the referee - did any occurrence distract the shooter after the call and before the shot. Not like the hedgehog than ambled about at Beverley yesterday in front of A layout for 30 mins.

 

[** Pending Removal **]

Hi DT, broken target is a "no bird" so is invalid whether you fire at it or not so is taken again. Real problem comes with slow release where the shooter refuses the target by removing the gun from his shoulder [he may not track the target before refusal] so becomes referee's judgement. In this case the shooter accepts the target if his fires a shot. Baulk is difficult for the referee - did any occurrence distract the shooter after the call and before the shot. Not like the hedgehog than ambled about at Beverley yesterday in front of A layout for 30 mins.

I agree and that is what i said about a broken bird. But that it not what the badly written rules say....

 

[Dog Tyred]

Blimey I'm confused now.

So if Mr Caves shoots at a broken target and misses (unlikely) I can call it a loss according to the rules. Yeah right!!

Think I'll have to be on the ball with the No bird shout.

Bit of a grey area this one.

DT

 

[40UP]

An incomplete target is a "no bird" and it doesn't count whether fired at or not.

The referee is not required to warn the shooter in advance. You cannot score from an incomplete target.

 

[** Pending Removal **]

An incomplete target is a "no bird" and it doesn't count whether fired at or not.

The referee is not required to warn the shooter in advance. You cannot score from an incomplete target.

I quite agree....... but the rules say.....

NO TARGET

9.21 A “NO TARGET” is to be declared and another target allowed, PROVIDED THE COMPETITOR

HAS NOT FIRED:

9.21.1 If the target is thrown before the competitor has called for it.

9.21.2 If the target is not thrown immediately after a call and the competitor lowers their gun.

9.21.3 If the target is irregular.

9.21.4 In these cases, if the competitor fires at the target, the result shall be scored, subject to the

Referees ruling.

9.21.5 In the following cases of malfunction or misfire not caused by the competitor, another target

shall be allowed:

9.21.6 If the competitor’s first shot misfires and they do not fire the second shot. (If the second shot

is fired, the result is scored).

9.21.7 If the first shot is a miss and the competitor’s second shot misfires. In this case, the first shot

at the new target must miss the target and the competitor must attempt to hit the target with their second

shot only. If the target is hit with the first shot it is scored “LOST”.

The Referee will declare a “NO TARGET” and allow another target if:

9.21.8 The competitor has been materially disturbed. (See Balk in general rules) If the competitor

fires at a regular target they may not claim interference or disturbance.

9.21.9 Another competitor has fired at their target.

9.21.10 If both shots are discharged simultaneously, providing it is not the third or subsequent

occasion in a round. (See malfunctions in general rules).Version CPSA/B7/2012/01 – 4th May 2012 Page 26 of 32

A “No Target” is called if:

9.21.11 A competitor shoots out of turn.

9.21.12 A shot is discharged before the competitor has called for their target. However if the target

is thrown and the competitor fires their second shot, the result must be scored. (Note: If the Competitor

has a malfunction on the first shot and fires their second shot, the result shall be scored).

Do you think they need rewriting......I do

 

[40UP]

It's comical and extremely difficult to fire a second shot if a first shot hasn't happened.

 

[** Pending Removal **]

It's comical and extremely difficult to fire a second shot if a first shot hasn't happened.

9.21.6

9.21.12 (missing is ...stand back or throw yourself to the floor)

 

[Dog Tyred]

Right I've got it.The CPSA rule book talks about 'irregular targets' but does not specifically refer to broken or incomplete targets.

However, the UIT rule book for ABT provides clear guidance on the issue in 9.4 below.

9.4 Regular Target: Any target which is thrown on the shooter's call according to Rule 6.5 is deemed a regular target. Irregular Target: Any target which deviates from the specifications of Rule 8.5 as to angle and elevation and distance shall be deemed to be irregular. A broken target is not considered an irregular target. Broken Target: Any target which is not whole, according to Rule 4.1 A shooter who receives a broken target must repeat his shot on a regular target regardless whether he hit or missed the broken target if he shot.

Why can't the CPSA rulebook be so precise as the UIT one?

Nuff said

DT

 

[Andy S]

Ok an update.

Went back to Bisley Gun Club on saturday 1st December to shoot the 100 reg. This is shoot as 2 rounds of 25 on both of their layouts, so you shoot 25 have a few minutes break then shoot the next 25. As it was near 11:30 when I booked on I joined a ggroup of 4 to shot my first 50. Then I had a break and had some lunch, sausage, egg, chips and beans from the clubhouse, christ wish I hadn't bothered, but the food was excellant with good portions from Jane, as we then went out and shot the next 25 and I struggled to hit a barn door which is reflected in a score of 11 hits for 32 points.............. Managed to pull myself together for the final 25 and hit 20 for 57 points.

Targets:18 22 11 20 Total Hits       71
Points:  48 60 32 57 Total Points 197

So overall for my first reg I am quite pleased with the result, except the 3rd one and I didn't come last, 12th out of 13. One of the shooter gave me some good advice and confirmed what I already know, that left eye dominance is going to cause me problems, as the comb is raised on my sporter so it is shoots high but this allows the left eye to take over on some birds.
 

 

[ips]

Its a long hard road to acheive 100-290+ at DTL my friend, your scores are ok for a necomer to trap apart from your 3rd line which was obviously a dissapointment for you. Without the benefit of seing you shoot all I can suggest is have a read throught the various posts on this trap section re hold points etc but dont get too bogged down with technicalities at this point. I dont know your history but if you are primarily a sporting shot then you must learn to adopt a different shooting technique for trap were you do not attempt to give maintained lead or any of that other sporting stuff you must clear your mind and allow yourself to shoot instinctively, it takes time to have the confidence to trust your own ability. Above all enjoy and you will improve.

Just looked at your profile pic and as you seem to be in some sort of wild animal cage then I assume you are a sporting shooter .............. or just wierd .

 

[Andy S]

ips,

Primarily been a sporting shot but have always enjoyed shooting Helice, which is a see it shot it discipline. This works at the moment quite well for me at DTL, definatly won't be trying maintanined lead on these, which you couldn't as the direction of the clay is variable. :wink:

If I can put a few score together of a similar nature then I will be pleased and will use that as a base starting point to work from.

Some may call me wierd for wanting to shoot DTL but I just don't care about them I out to enjoy myself, not them.

 

[ips]

Andy

good answer. Dtl is a very enjoyable sport with very friendly folk and a good starting point for other trap. One good point is that it is reasonably quick to get good at so keep going and enjoy.

Ian

 

[Les53]

Its a long hard road to acheive 100-290+ at DTL my friend, your scores are ok for a necomer to trap apart from your 3rd line which was obviously a dissapointment for you. Without the benefit of seing you shoot all I can suggest is have a read throught the various posts on this trap section re hold points etc but dont get too bogged down with technicalities at this point. I dont know your history but if you are primarily a sporting shot then you must learn to adopt a different shooting technique for trap were you do not attempt to give maintained lead or any of that other sporting stuff you must clear your mind and allow yourself to shoot instinctively, it takes time to have the confidence to trust your own ability. Above all enjoy and you will improve.

Just looked at your profile pic and as you seem to be in some sort of wild animal cage then I assume you are a sporting shooter .............. or just wierd .

 Ian my learned friend, said animal cage is a hedge monkey pen dear boy! :lol: