Driven Game Technique?
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Jonny English
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Well Guys went out for my first day out of the season, my Dad took me to his syndicate yesterday to try and get me rolling.
Had 8 pheasants over me and 3 kills, all first barrel 1/2 choke. I tried to shoot pull away same as I shoot clays, and found I needed a fair amount of lead. Managed to build a bit of a sight picture for mid to long range stuff. Shot 2 at 30-35 yards ish, 5-6 foot of lead, shot 1 at about 50 yards with good 9-10 foot. All 3 kills full on crossers and first barrel 1/2 choke, but missed about 4 all closer in, or straight driven. So still need to find my lead for 25 yard area and sort my technique or lead for straight driven. I've read Mike Yardleys article on lead that game requires, and i'm finding similar figures, see article below.
Shot gamebore black golds, 32 gram 6's, got 3 really good kills, stunning cartridge!
So hopefully I can build from this and try to perfect pull away away method and build up an image library. Thanks for all your comments
How Much Lead? The Way Forward
IMPROVE YOUR SHOOTING
Forward allowance is one of the most commonly used techniques of shooting. The theory is straightforward – but deciding how much allowance a bird needs is far from simple. MIKE YARDLEY tries to take a scientific approach to the big question – HOW MUCH LEAD?
THE WAY FORWARD
I have set myself an interesting mission – an exploration of the speeds at which birds fly and how forward allowance, mathematically speaking, may change as a result of species, range and conditions. Many of us will have opinions about this – we may, for example, have an idea about what we think we see or don’t see in different circumstances.
But, opinion isn’t very objective. We need facts to shoot consistently well!
Here is one with which to start: however you get your shot charge in front of a bird – whether you swing through, pull away or maintain a lead – whatever you think you see or do, and however you move your gun, there will be a distance at which the shot must be placed in front of any moving target if you want to hit it.
In the words of one old shooting instructor: “If you are out shooting and want to do the biz, you must shoot where the bird is going and not where it is.”
How much lead? That is always the $64,000 question. I have noted when driving my car that occasionally I have birds flying parallel to me. I have clocked wood pigeon at 50mph on several occasions and pheasants at nearly 40 (though they do not sustain it for long). Both appeared to be flying normally, without much wind in evidence.
I phoned pigeon expert John Batley, and, reassuringly, he noted that typically wood pigeon fly “up to about 50mph in level flight but are capable of 70 mph in strong wind.” This supported my occasional observation.
My next port of call was BASC’S Dr Peter Marshall. He told me: “The estimations of bird flight are varied and really depend on the environmental conditions in which the bird is flying.Wind, topography, stress, and condition of the bird all play a part. One thing which can be said is that in general, although smaller birds appear to be travelling faster, it is usually the larger bird which in fact is flying at the faster speed.”
This is most interesting and may explain more than a few misses at duck and geese. Peter went on to tell me that reasonable estimates would be 30+mph for partridge, 35mph for pheasant, 35-40mph for large duck and 35-45mph for geese. Although much higher figures (90mph) have been recorded for migrating brent, as, apparently, discovered by the WWT using GPS equipment.
So, there is some very interesting information here. Partridge are relatively slow flying. Large birds and pigeons in full flight are deceptively fast. This is useful stuff. Now, it’s time to mention the Eley Shooter’s Diary – a great resource. It notes – and has done for all the years I have bought or been given it – forward allowances at different ranges for birds travelling at 65kph (40mph). It does this both for standard game loads (nominal observed velocity 325 m/sec – 1070 fps) and high velocity game loads 340 m/sec - 1120 fps).
The Eley figures, presented in the diagram below, will get you thinking.
Forward allowance
For birds crossing at 40 mph, using No. 6 shot.
So, you will see at 30 yards – a pretty typical distance for most live quarry work – 5’ 3” is required for the slower cartridge and 5’ 6” for the faster one when a bird is travelling at 40mph. Frankly, I think the 3" difference is rather academic, but, this accords pretty much with my own experience with pheasant. I might make the same comment for the 8’ and 7’ 8” of lead required at 40 yards according to the Eley tables, although my subjective impression with high pheasant is that they sometimes need significantly more (especially if I am using a short-barrelled gun which changes the perception of lead – I always feel I see less with longer barrels).
Most clays are travelling at about 45-50 mph when shot. So, the figures in the diary apply pretty well too (assuming crossing targets of standard size). Midis, however, require more lead (usually, roughly speaking, about 50 per cent) as will any target that is presented faster than the average.
What about the closer stuff?
On crossing clay birds at 20-25, I will often tell a beginner to shoot a yard or so in front having established a relationship with the target (to those who note one man’s inch is another man’s yard, I would say not if you focus on the bird).
A Quick Guide To Lead
Estimated forward allowance for straight incoming and true crossing birds (quartering angles will appear to need less). Calculations are based on quarry presented in typical conditions without wind assistance and are rounded up to the nearest foot. These are not definitive and intended only as a guide. (Images not to scale)
I might add to all this that, when I am loading for friends, I note many close birds – birds which might be better left – missed in front.When range gets to 20-25 yards, however, the pattern of missing is typically just behind, and on the high stuff many Guns are missing behind by as much as a factor of 50-100 per cent. They are, in other words, typically misjudging the lead by a yard or two, sometimes more (though stopping the gun may be a related issue).
Their problems are often aggravated by other issues such as rushing, stopping the gun or misreading the line as well. I am now going to a clay range to test some of this out (again)... I suggest you do the same before your next foray in the field!
Michael Yardley is a professional shooting instructor, and a London University qualified psychologist. He may be contacted viaemailmailto:"[email protected]".
How much lead? Mike’s conclusions
Lead required for your typical 40 mph bird:
Lead required for a slower, 35 mph, bird:
Lead required for a faster, 50 mph, bird: Pigeon, some clays, many wildfowl
* 4 feet at 25 yards
* 5-6 feet at 30 yards
* 7-8 feet at 40 yards
* 9-10 at 45 yards
* 3 feet at 25 yards
* 4-5 feet at 30 yards
* 6-7 feet at 40 yards
* 8 at 45 yards
* 5 feet at 25 yards
* 7 feet at 30 yards
* 9-10 feet at 40 yards
* 12 at 45 yards
Edit: sorry chaps the pictures haven't copied and pasted, but the text pretty well covers it.
Had 8 pheasants over me and 3 kills, all first barrel 1/2 choke. I tried to shoot pull away same as I shoot clays, and found I needed a fair amount of lead. Managed to build a bit of a sight picture for mid to long range stuff. Shot 2 at 30-35 yards ish, 5-6 foot of lead, shot 1 at about 50 yards with good 9-10 foot. All 3 kills full on crossers and first barrel 1/2 choke, but missed about 4 all closer in, or straight driven. So still need to find my lead for 25 yard area and sort my technique or lead for straight driven. I've read Mike Yardleys article on lead that game requires, and i'm finding similar figures, see article below.
Shot gamebore black golds, 32 gram 6's, got 3 really good kills, stunning cartridge!
So hopefully I can build from this and try to perfect pull away away method and build up an image library. Thanks for all your comments
How Much Lead? The Way Forward
IMPROVE YOUR SHOOTING
Forward allowance is one of the most commonly used techniques of shooting. The theory is straightforward – but deciding how much allowance a bird needs is far from simple. MIKE YARDLEY tries to take a scientific approach to the big question – HOW MUCH LEAD?
THE WAY FORWARD
I have set myself an interesting mission – an exploration of the speeds at which birds fly and how forward allowance, mathematically speaking, may change as a result of species, range and conditions. Many of us will have opinions about this – we may, for example, have an idea about what we think we see or don’t see in different circumstances.
But, opinion isn’t very objective. We need facts to shoot consistently well!
Here is one with which to start: however you get your shot charge in front of a bird – whether you swing through, pull away or maintain a lead – whatever you think you see or do, and however you move your gun, there will be a distance at which the shot must be placed in front of any moving target if you want to hit it.
In the words of one old shooting instructor: “If you are out shooting and want to do the biz, you must shoot where the bird is going and not where it is.”
How much lead? That is always the $64,000 question. I have noted when driving my car that occasionally I have birds flying parallel to me. I have clocked wood pigeon at 50mph on several occasions and pheasants at nearly 40 (though they do not sustain it for long). Both appeared to be flying normally, without much wind in evidence.
I phoned pigeon expert John Batley, and, reassuringly, he noted that typically wood pigeon fly “up to about 50mph in level flight but are capable of 70 mph in strong wind.” This supported my occasional observation.
My next port of call was BASC’S Dr Peter Marshall. He told me: “The estimations of bird flight are varied and really depend on the environmental conditions in which the bird is flying.Wind, topography, stress, and condition of the bird all play a part. One thing which can be said is that in general, although smaller birds appear to be travelling faster, it is usually the larger bird which in fact is flying at the faster speed.”
This is most interesting and may explain more than a few misses at duck and geese. Peter went on to tell me that reasonable estimates would be 30+mph for partridge, 35mph for pheasant, 35-40mph for large duck and 35-45mph for geese. Although much higher figures (90mph) have been recorded for migrating brent, as, apparently, discovered by the WWT using GPS equipment.
So, there is some very interesting information here. Partridge are relatively slow flying. Large birds and pigeons in full flight are deceptively fast. This is useful stuff. Now, it’s time to mention the Eley Shooter’s Diary – a great resource. It notes – and has done for all the years I have bought or been given it – forward allowances at different ranges for birds travelling at 65kph (40mph). It does this both for standard game loads (nominal observed velocity 325 m/sec – 1070 fps) and high velocity game loads 340 m/sec - 1120 fps).
The Eley figures, presented in the diagram below, will get you thinking.
Forward allowance
For birds crossing at 40 mph, using No. 6 shot.
So, you will see at 30 yards – a pretty typical distance for most live quarry work – 5’ 3” is required for the slower cartridge and 5’ 6” for the faster one when a bird is travelling at 40mph. Frankly, I think the 3" difference is rather academic, but, this accords pretty much with my own experience with pheasant. I might make the same comment for the 8’ and 7’ 8” of lead required at 40 yards according to the Eley tables, although my subjective impression with high pheasant is that they sometimes need significantly more (especially if I am using a short-barrelled gun which changes the perception of lead – I always feel I see less with longer barrels).
Most clays are travelling at about 45-50 mph when shot. So, the figures in the diary apply pretty well too (assuming crossing targets of standard size). Midis, however, require more lead (usually, roughly speaking, about 50 per cent) as will any target that is presented faster than the average.
What about the closer stuff?
On crossing clay birds at 20-25, I will often tell a beginner to shoot a yard or so in front having established a relationship with the target (to those who note one man’s inch is another man’s yard, I would say not if you focus on the bird).
A Quick Guide To Lead
Estimated forward allowance for straight incoming and true crossing birds (quartering angles will appear to need less). Calculations are based on quarry presented in typical conditions without wind assistance and are rounded up to the nearest foot. These are not definitive and intended only as a guide. (Images not to scale)
I might add to all this that, when I am loading for friends, I note many close birds – birds which might be better left – missed in front.When range gets to 20-25 yards, however, the pattern of missing is typically just behind, and on the high stuff many Guns are missing behind by as much as a factor of 50-100 per cent. They are, in other words, typically misjudging the lead by a yard or two, sometimes more (though stopping the gun may be a related issue).
Their problems are often aggravated by other issues such as rushing, stopping the gun or misreading the line as well. I am now going to a clay range to test some of this out (again)... I suggest you do the same before your next foray in the field!
Michael Yardley is a professional shooting instructor, and a London University qualified psychologist. He may be contacted viaemailmailto:"[email protected]".
How much lead? Mike’s conclusions
Lead required for your typical 40 mph bird:
Lead required for a slower, 35 mph, bird:
Lead required for a faster, 50 mph, bird: Pigeon, some clays, many wildfowl
* 4 feet at 25 yards
* 5-6 feet at 30 yards
* 7-8 feet at 40 yards
* 9-10 at 45 yards
* 3 feet at 25 yards
* 4-5 feet at 30 yards
* 6-7 feet at 40 yards
* 8 at 45 yards
* 5 feet at 25 yards
* 7 feet at 30 yards
* 9-10 feet at 40 yards
* 12 at 45 yards
Edit: sorry chaps the pictures haven't copied and pasted, but the text pretty well covers it.
Last edited by a moderator:
I think there is far too much time spent reading, viewing DVD's and films rather than getting out in the field training and perhaps having a lesson from a qualified shooting instructor.
What do I mean by qualified? Not a badge collector or certificate hanger, (although that does prove they have received training) I mean a competent expert trainer and damn good shot, someone who can teach by example.
Remember that a clay, once it has left the throwing arm is decelerating, where as a bird once it has left the ground or perch, is accelerating, invariably a bird will need a little more lead than you would have given a clay, not much , but a little. Beware of the bird with set wings, not beating, it is flying faster than you thought and if it is coming towards you and curling, lead it and shoot underneath it's lower wing.
Good luck in the field.
What do I mean by qualified? Not a badge collector or certificate hanger, (although that does prove they have received training) I mean a competent expert trainer and damn good shot, someone who can teach by example.
Remember that a clay, once it has left the throwing arm is decelerating, where as a bird once it has left the ground or perch, is accelerating, invariably a bird will need a little more lead than you would have given a clay, not much , but a little. Beware of the bird with set wings, not beating, it is flying faster than you thought and if it is coming towards you and curling, lead it and shoot underneath it's lower wing.
Good luck in the field.
P
** Pending Removal **
Guest
And if you want to be invited back......don't turn and take driven birds as crossers. If you cannot learn to shoot with the correct etiquette ......then go shooting cays. Unless you are with friends.......you have a specific window to shoot your bird. If it goes out of that window you leave it for either your neighbour ....or for another day.
And you never......never.......NEVER.....count out loud your birds shot.......or say how many you have shot to anyone except 'your' picker up, giving details of where each shot bird is. If you cannot remember then don't shoot anymore......!!
Jonny English
Well-known member
I've got my second day this saturday another 70 bird day, so i've got a bit more confidence than before the weekend, i think I was cutting my lead plenty short enough on the straight driven birds, so will have to give them a lottle more I think this saturday, there will be a few high ducks as well this weekend too. Thanks for all the advice
Martin
Martin
EdSolomons
Well-known member
Looking foward to going on a day Ive been invited on this coming Saturday, really hope the weather stays dry, cant wait to fold a couple up!
Go another one on the cards in January too, went last year and had a blast. Tally ho!
Go another one on the cards in January too, went last year and had a blast. Tally ho!
EdSolomons
Well-known member
Im sure it will be great; even if the weathers pants im not too fussed;Ill have stood out in a lot worse for fishing!
A friend of mine was picking up behind a "hot" peg years ago, hillside with a high peak, 5 guns at the left side of the high peak, 2 pegs beside each other (6+7) and a back gun (peg 8) , at the right hand side of the peak. The two guns on 6+7 were brothers, it was their uncles shoot, they were both counting loudly, poaching each others birds and shot every bird that went over them except 3...my friend was shocked at their behaviour, the poor back gun only fired 1 shot and killed a cock the whole drive, but to his surpprise the back gun seemed more happy than the two brothers who had shot 17 and 19!?!?
"Not much shooting there..."
"Oh, don't worry, I had a large wagger with those two that between them they could never shoot all the birds and stop me shooting one, or that either of them could shoot 20!!! I win!!!"
No idea what the wagger was...
Jonny English
Well-known member
In Lincolnshire a lot of shoots run on whats called Lincolnshire rules, they consist of "if your neighbours bird is better than yours, your entitled to shoot it before him" it makes for an interesting day, and it does teach you to shoot stuff in front. If you get a good shot either side of you it can be a tough day, but you have to get stuck in! Often you'll just be putting the gun up and the bird will ball up and drop at your feet. Not all shoots in Lincolnshire operate these rules though.
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MX8man
Well-known member
That's a little bit black and white for a pastime with a lot of grey areas.
You can have birds heading for your neighbour which may not be a challenging shot for them but which as a 30 or 40 yard crosser are challenging for you.
If you're with friends then pinching one of their birds is part of the fun - just remember that they are just as entitled to pinch one of yours.
The key no-no is don't shoot low birds. Of course what may be a low bird for an experienced and good shot may be a challenging bird for the less able shot. However, if you work on the principle that if, as you bring the gun up, you know you'll kill the bird, then it can't be challenging enough and you should bring the gun down, and wait for a better bird. Better to shoot 1 bird that you remember at the end of the day and miss 60 other such birds than to shoot umpteen forgettable birds.
P
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Guest
I was not talking about 'friends shooting' ....for that it is anything goes.
But then what do i know about game shooting......... L O L
I had my finest compliment paid to me on Friday after more than 50 years Game shooting.
Was it about my gun? No.
Suit? No.
High bird shot? No.
A gentleman said to me " I have just watched you shooting and you have a wonderful technique and look so stylish."
Wow! I really blushed, me speechless? That's a first.
Was it about my gun? No.
Suit? No.
High bird shot? No.
A gentleman said to me " I have just watched you shooting and you have a wonderful technique and look so stylish."
Wow! I really blushed, me speechless? That's a first.
P
** Pending Removal **
Guest
I ......know................................................'Nothing'..................(hand across chest)...!!
Mr Fawlty
EdSolomons
Well-known member
EdSolomons
Well-known member
I couldnt possibly coach you, I dont have early enough badges to be up to the task!
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