Disqualification

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Timps ,

 Very , very well explained .

The point I am trying to make is how poor our associations are at running a good ship .

Some of you may remember a very good friend of mine being banned some years ago for cheating which he admitted he did do , but his mitigating statement was that so was a many good few more . In fact he was so good of a shot that on one occassion he did shoot 51 at  a 50 bird shoot , a true score because they had got the total of the stands incorrect , but you can imagine how much fuel that put on the bonfire . He now lives in Australia but comes over for holidays and still shoots brilliantly .

When I mentioned this current mess his reply was " He's been doing it for years ".

So as far as I am concerned you pay your money ,shoot to the best of your ability and if you have a good day , don't be surprised if you get beaten .

Remember 'the pen is mightier than the sword.'
I did once match him target for target, the only difference was,  I was shooting from the recognized stands,  he was shooting from the next layout,  an additional 30 yards away   !

His Lad was not a bad shot either..................................at the age of EIGHT  !    😄 

 
he's a great shot  and coach  from what I've seen and been told  !      if the allegations are true   it puts all his success  over the years  in doubt !        what a mess !!         

 
Seems there's already a video out showing how the said person cheated, which is now deemed to be a fake. I'll wait until everything is out from the governing bodies and take it from there.
While I am not directly familiar with the process or any precedents, I do not believe the NSCA can overrule any DQ at this point; it can only add further punishment like suspension or expulsion and this is what's under appeal right now.  The rules allow the club to manage any DQ and there's an appeal process for that which would have been exhausted before the DQ was announced.  Nationals are running now in TX so all the players are down there right now but once it's over, I can ask my national delegate what's under appeal, the DQ or the additional NSCA punishment.

 
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And a lot of that go's on in the nations favourite (or so they tell us) football
Not sure which nation you're referring to but if 'it's the US you could not be more right tho I never bother to watch NFL kinda "football"... .  Nothing less than a disgrace IMO and it's everywhere starting with the Orange Clown who promotes it daily.  the English football that I see is absolutely a model of civility compared.

 
Why were the cards being marked in pencil? I can't say for sure that they were, but the photos doing the rounds look like pencil.

The NSCA Rule Book 2019 states

G. SCORING PROCEDURE 1. Each shooter will be assigned a score card to be presented to the Field Judges at the various stations or fields. Field Judges VII-F-1-c 48 will score each shooter's attempts on the individuals score card. The total shall be tallied and the scores written in ink and initialed by the Field Judge.

 
Altered scorecard.... only mentioned about 6 times in this thread.
Yes altered card BUT altered by who? Was he seen to do it OR did a ref do it at the stand after he had shot. In other words did anybody see him do it. His defense may be that the scorer put in the wrong score altered the card but not the official score sheet? See this sort of thing does not occur in trap because the shooter never gets near the score card other than to sign for his score after the round has finished.

 
I do remember him being involved in a "cheating situation" before . He is alleged to have cheated when shooting a target, which was one of a pair, where he missed the first and then let the second run a bit further knowing that if it broke he would get the pair again, think it was a ground target, and it broke. The pair had to be shot again and he broke both.
He has been very open about this in the media actually. 

Ive spoke to him previously via social media and he does indeed come across as a stand up guy. Very generous with his time to youngsters, disabled and able bodied shooters alike by many accounts.

He could be considered ‘abrasive’ which from my perspective is simply a no nonsense style that I actually appreciate. Certainly I think it’s fair to say he might be considered a ‘marmite’ kind of guy.

And indeed, why pencil being used at such an event? Had they taken the accused previous recommendations (ones I believe he has shared with George Digweed) about stopping cheating by using a hole punch, then this could not have occurred.

furthermore there seems to be some counter claims of a ‘sting’ like operation from other disgruntled shooters. 

Sadly mud sticks regardless of truth oftentimes and all the more so in these social media days where one only needs to make a claim for the ‘truth’ to be told. In my days substance was required.

the issue here seems to be that substance has been offered up  

propaganda perhaps?

personally i don’t feel it directly impacts upon me so I’ll give benefit of the doubt. Mercy and tolerance is in short supply 

 
I doubt a shooter of his stature or reputation would be that bothered by what people on a forum say about him. Doesn't give the impression of a delicate flower.
Sorry but I don't get that at all, why would a solid person with good mental wherewithal be any different to a snowflake when it comes to being accused of cheating ? I'd have thought he'd be anxious/troubled with the entire thing top to bottom. Clay shooting (and the sponsorship that comes with it in his case) and clay coaching is almost certainly his main source of income if not passion,  nobody can take that lightly regardless of how strong you are.

I do agree he must be livid with an awful lot of frankly silly things that have been mentioned by people who were neither there nor in a sufficiently high enough position or capacity/experience to be able to (pre)judge. 

 
Yes I know... why have you been so selective when quoting my post? I go much further than what you quoted!
Your post was moderately long one and I was agreeing/commenting on one specific facet so to me would seem superfluous to quote your entire post.  

 
Your post was moderately long one and I was agreeing/commenting on one specific facet so to me would seem superfluous to quote your entire post.  


Well they way you quoted was wrong because that statement taken in isolation, I think, gives entirely the wrong impression of what I actually said ! Any sensible person would have quoted the entire first paragraph as that is the full statement as pertains to that incident not part of it!

 
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Sorry but I don't get that at all, why would a solid person with good mental wherewithal be any different to a snowflake when it comes to being accused of cheating ? I'd have thought he'd be anxious/troubled with the entire thing top to bottom. Clay shooting (and the sponsorship that comes with it in his case) and clay coaching is almost certainly his main source of income if not passion,  nobody can take that lightly regardless of how strong you are.

I do agree he must be livid with an awful lot of frankly silly things that have been mentioned by people who were neither there nor in a sufficiently high enough position or capacity/experience to be able to (pre)judge. 
Having both come from playing rugby, I'd be surprised if he's as bothered as you think he is about people's opinions on a forum... if you are, you don't tend to last long in that sport especially if you play at a decent level, however with important areas which actually matter such as the opinion of sponsors, etc. it might well be a different story but that's not what I said. On top of that, it's commonplace for professional sportsmen to be aware of forums and websites talking nonsense about them and the ones who are solid generally have the ability to rise above it, at least that's what they all tend to say. It's the snowflakes as you call them that fall away because they can't handle a different type of pressure to the one that's created when performing at the top level. Haters are always gonna hate, even when you're squeaky clean.

Opinions are each to their own though so we'll have to agree to disagree on this one and move on.

 
Well they way you quoted was wrong because that statement taken in isolation, I think, gives entirely the wrong impression of what I actually said ! Any sensible person would have quoted the entire first paragraph as that is the full statement as pertains to that incident not part of it!
Perhaps I’m not a sensible person then?

However, my point, my opinion and my interpretation is my own. It only needs to be sensible to me as far as I’m concerned.

That said, for your benefit, my apologies for [mis]quoting you.

Instead let me be sensible for a moment and proffer my opinion in my own words...

I do remember [watching a YouTube clip of ] him being involved in a "cheating situation" before. He [said he was] alleged to have cheated when shooting a target, which was one of a pair, where he missed the first and then let the second run a bit further knowing that if it broke he would get the pair again... The pair had to be shot again and he broke both...

He went on to say it was within the rules and that he made it his business to know the rules.

NB Any similarities with my above comment with previous posts of either myself or others are entirely deliberate 

 
It might be useful to hear Bens side of the argument. So far he’s been conspicuous by his absence.
He's posted about his eye dominance rail in the last day, so there's no doubt he's on here. But this is a forum, I don't see much benefit in him commenting on this as there'll always be some who have their own unchangeable opinion regardless of any facts, so why bother? Don't let the truth get in the way of a good story. :)  

 
If it's being looked into by the governing bodies under appeal, I would think it wise he would make no comment until their decesion on it

 
OK - stepping in for a second. 

There is a long-standing rule on this site that we don't name people involved in stories like this.   If you want to name them on your website, go for your life.... but I don't need the attention or want it here.   If that concerns you - let me know. 

My involvement here - apart from paying the bill every month - is very limited, i don't need to be drawn in by getting emails about issues like this. 

 
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