10,000 hours....the answer

[chippy]

A true natural shot is best observed shooting pigeons.by the time most of us has seen the bird, they have seen it worked out the distance speed and angle mounted the gun and shot it,and all without them knowing how they achieved the result.

 

[Nick Selby]

Kind of agree with Mr wonko. Some people have natural talent however what makes some people with natural talent really achieve over other naturally talented folk is for want of a better expression a certain arrogance and self belief. Natural talent, practice and self belief = an achiever.

true enough although the arrogance isn't always obvious...

 

[ips]

the best example of natural talent i know is John Stafford a truly effortless shooter, and a lovely bloke. You will never see a more natural shooter in our life time.

 

[Fortis Mark]

Typical PC rot.

So if I had studied my ass off for the entirety of my life I'd be as smart and creative as Stephan Hocking. Riiiiight! I could be the equal of the world's greatest artists? I could write Pulitzer novels? I could be an Olympic gymnast? Out run Bolt? Puhleeze!

Do you really think that the just-not-quite-great are simply not trying hard enough?

Get over it - some people are simply better.

But of course, in egalitarian society dominated by the concept of freedom, anything is possible, innit?

besta luck on that

I wouldn't say it is PC Rot.

There are 2 camps here, 'Effort' and 'Talent' I can see both sides of the argument, both have science behind them.

"If you believe you lack talent, and in order to get good you have to have talent, then you might as well give up. The conclusion is rational given the premise" Where would the majority of us be if this premise were true? Should I give up shooting now?

There are many examples in life from both camps. You quote Stephan Hocking (I presume you mean Stephen Hawking?) and Bolt, and good examples they are. Both I'm sure have genetics on their side, and have put in effort along the way.

Too many people, it often starts with children (I blame the school system and parents who praise their children for being 'talented') are being fooled by the talent camp.

For those who walk among us who are blessed with genetics (talent) good on you. I for one do not know what genetics i may have been blessed with, nor in what area exactly they may be. Genetics is something none of us can change, therefore, for the vast majority of us, its ALL about EFFORT.

 

[Macc Ladd]

Talent overcomes effort, and effort will overcome talent! It's when the talented get things right mentally, those with just effort will get blown away!!!!

 

[Fortis Mark]

Talent overcomes effort, and effort will overcome talent! It's when the talented get things right mentally, those with just effort will get blown away!!!!

Yes, when the two come together it's a difficult combination to beat.

 

[** Pending Removal **]

The 10,000 hour rule is fact.

The other thing that make a 'worker' even better is location. If you have a modicum of talent (natural or otherwise) and you work hard plus you live within easy reach of your training venue...then you are not only the luckiest person in the world ....but you succeed to your goal.

We have discussed the 10,000 hour rule on here before, I think I started a thread about it...there is a lot of info on it.

A good easy ready that explains it very well is 'Bounce' by Matthew Said.

Many people who won got their goal....fit into the 10,000 hour rule....including our own Pete Wilson.....just saying. :wink:

(I talk from experience :wink: )

 

[shortlegs]

Continuous effort - not strength or intelligence - is the key to unlocking our potential.

Winston Churchill
Success is not final, failure is not fatal: it is the courage to continue that counts.

Winston Churchill

 

[BoB1]

I would agree with the 10,000 hour rule too. But "practising correctly" is a critical part of that. Anyone can spend hundreds or thousands of hours in the library sleeping or chatting in the gym, but they're not going to get their PhD or become Mr. Universe.

You need an aptitude for sure, but no ever got anywhere on talent alone.

 

[jake.keeling]

I've seen Mathew Syed in person, he explains it very well and shows how most people don't realise how much effort these talented people have put in.


http://www.tirovesti.co.uk/

 

[Santa2512]

A comment once passed to me by one of our former England  Archery squad member during a practice session was very apt, and goes to show we are   all human

He said,  some days the gold  (Archery 10 ring) is  the size of a bucket, no matter how badly you think you've done, the shot goes in.

Other days the gold is the size of a coffee jar lid, and no matter how hard you try, nothing will go in.

In reality the gold is the same size all the time,  the reason you miss,its down to you, 

Mart

 

[Wonko the Sane]

It's certainly good to know that no matter how stupid or weak one might be, a dedicated effort will insure success at any chosen endeavor.  Hard to imagine what things would be like if I had really acted relentlessly on my belief that I should be King of the World.

So in that vein I celebrate boundlessly the rationalizations that seemingly drive the human race and know no borders.

And, yes, Stephen Hawking - a huge apology for the error.

Mina was obviously in error when she stated, "De Nile is not just a river in Great Britain".

 

[Hamster]

Anyone who knows a thing about snooker will be aware that Ronnie O'Sullivan has natural ability that is unique, multiple world champions repeatedly refer to him as the greatest player they have ever seen yet he has won less world titles than a good few !

The others have clearly got talent, if not on the same surreal scale but they best him when it comes to application, hard work, mental control, killer instinct, winners resolve, etc etc.

 

[Nick Selby]

Yep, to be the best consistently you need effort, natural talent and mental strength.... I'd be surprised if many make it to the top without all 3.

 

[** Pending Removal **]

Can I clarify my post.

If you cannot hit a barn door at 10 paces...then no amount of training will help.

I am only talking about shooters with a modicum of skill to start with....just saying.

 

[Nick Selby]

Further to my post, I do think that mental strength and effort will get you to a reasonable level of shooting though as it is a repetitive sport, bit like golf. I know loads of golfers who play off lowish handicaps without much natural talent but play loads and have the mental approach....

 

[ips]

Can I clarify my post.

If you cannot hit a barn door at 10 paces...then no amount of training will help.

I am only talking about shooters with a modicum of skill to start with....just saying.

at the moment i can hit a barn door but only at 5 paces 10 maybe pushing it a bit

 

[no.1topdog]

at the moment i can hit a barn door but only at 5 paces 10 maybe pushing it a bit

Simple solution to make you a better shot.

Find a bigger barn!!  :sarcastic:

the best example of natural talent i know is John Stafford a truly effortless shooter, and a lovely bloke. You will never see a more natural shooter in our life time.

How much of that is genetics? I remember his Father being pretty special too.  :biggrin:

 

[ips]

True TD yes his dad was very handy.

 

[redcloud]

A comment once passed to me by one of our former England  Archery squad member during a practice session was very apt, and goes to show we are   all human

He said,  some days the gold  (Archery 10 ring) is  the size of a bucket, no matter how badly you think you've done, the shot goes in.

Other days the gold is the size of a coffee jar lid, and no matter how hard you try, nothing will go in.

In reality the gold is the same size all the time,  the reason you miss,its down to you, 

Mart

I know that feeling well. In 2003 I reached the dizzy heights of representing England in a home nations shoot, that was the height of my life in archery, I hovered in the top 10 for around 4/5 years but after a serious accident caused some quite serious damage to my left shoulder I found it impossible to shoot a full tournament. I can manage an indoor but really don't enjoy that discipline. 

As for the 10000 hour thing I can agree to some point, I used to shoot every day in a regular training program that cemented muscle memory to such a degree that I still can drop a bow sight on to a 70M target with my eyes shut, strength and fitness for shooting a bow was very good and although I shot quite a heavy bow (46lb on the fingers) it was easy to me, now without the practice I struggle with 40lb. I couldn't have done that training without the enjoyment and the need to achieve my goals. I really believe that you need to be interested to be really good at anything, 10000 hours of something you hate? well I just don't believe that you would put the right effort in to get good if you really found it worse than a chore to devote time to training.

My favourite quote from my coaches while at my best (The late Barry and June Farndon, RIP) 

"Practice makes permanent,

Only perfect practice makes perfect."

Regards Dave