Martinj
Well-known member
Horne sell plastic wad ammo
Velocity v Superfast
- Thread starter El Spavo
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El Spavo
Well-known member
Thinking that the stats are all for the head game market: 50 superfast felt exactly the same as my usual Fiocchi TT1s in terms of recoil, despite quoted speed differences, etc. Starting to think they're making it all up...
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Will Hewland
Well-known member
Cartridge speed really ain’t where it’s at. Another half a foot at 50 yards covers the slower ones.. I personally never liked the feel of Superfast but my mate uses them to great affect.
El Spavo
Well-known member
I presumed, rightly or wrongly, that all the speed differential is good for is that at distance you're more likely to break summat cos it's got the velocity that the "slower" cartridges don't have. Allegedly. So if you shoot somewhere where everything is within 30-40 yards then you could pick absolutely anything as they should all do the same job... it's just how they feel with recoil, etc. at that point?
Will Hewland
Well-known member
Speed isn’t right or wrong. It’s what you calibrate to. If you shoot a super fast shell for a change, you will just miss in front.
El Spavo
Well-known member
Absolutely, and that's why I wasn't particularly bothered about the rate of knots it could fly at with regards hitting the target as logic dictates when targetting anything, if your shot/bullet moves slowly, you give more lead to compensate and vice versa... so where I have been shooting with TT1s, if the Superfast IS actually much, much quicker through the air, then unless I recallibrate where I'm aiming, I'm gonna miss or hit the front edge only. (wasn't though, could barely tell any difference and didn't have to alter my aim at all! 
)
But at distance, surely an actual higher velocity cartridge (or a more densely packed/patterned one during trajectory possibly?) will have a greater chance of breaking that clay at, say, 80+ yards on the basis it should theoretically maintain speed over that longer distance? The slower one will decelerate quicker and make it less powerfully destructive when it reaches that far target? Or am I talking b*llocks?!
)But at distance, surely an actual higher velocity cartridge (or a more densely packed/patterned one during trajectory possibly?) will have a greater chance of breaking that clay at, say, 80+ yards on the basis it should theoretically maintain speed over that longer distance? The slower one will decelerate quicker and make it less powerfully destructive when it reaches that far target? Or am I talking b*llocks?!
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MartynB
Well-known member
Bear in mind that 1500 FPS is a measurement taken at the muzzle , at 20 yards it’s nothing like that at 80 yards it’s going to be positively pedestrian probably around four or five hundred feet per second . The two things you want from a cartridge are good pattern delivery and smooth shooting IMHO . The object of using a 12g shotgun hasn’t changed in a hundred and fifty years . That’s getting a target at any given distance inside a flying cloud of pellets with enough density that it can’t pass through it . For your theoretical 80 yard target , a tighter choke and a bigger pellet size makes more sense to me than a “faster” cartridge
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There's a sticky on PigeonWatch where some kind chap has done extensive velocity tests for all kinds of shells including clay loads and the difference between the fastest and slowest lead loads is no more than 200 fps - the vast majority of the loads we commonly use fall in the 1300 - 1400 range (Eley Superbs are 1293). I have long maintained that a good shooter who is interested in the subject would be able to tell the difference once we get close to around 200 fps but have also said I'd pay to watch anyone tell the difference between 50-100 fps, in other words, (in normal shells) you can't tell what's what based on "speed" in a blind test.
You can of course tell the difference in break signature as well as recoil characteristics, to me it seems the quality of the shot is the important factor. FWIW I also don't believe oft quoted assumptions that slow shells pattern "better" or that fast shells "blow" patterns.
When it comes to extreme range such as 80 yards density matters more than speed because by then both fast and slow shells are out of steam and either could affect a chip or break depending on (where upon the target) the strike occurs, i.e, it is as much luck as speed or pattern to be fair since there is not going to be a definable "centre" as such.
Again FWIW I don't subscribe to bigger is better at range, density is what we need, I'd take a glancing strike from a 7.5 or even 8 on a 75 yard target over a powerful miss with a 6.5, the former at least stands a chance of causing a break. It's all about statistical probabilities.
You can of course tell the difference in break signature as well as recoil characteristics, to me it seems the quality of the shot is the important factor. FWIW I also don't believe oft quoted assumptions that slow shells pattern "better" or that fast shells "blow" patterns.
When it comes to extreme range such as 80 yards density matters more than speed because by then both fast and slow shells are out of steam and either could affect a chip or break depending on (where upon the target) the strike occurs, i.e, it is as much luck as speed or pattern to be fair since there is not going to be a definable "centre" as such.
Again FWIW I don't subscribe to bigger is better at range, density is what we need, I'd take a glancing strike from a 7.5 or even 8 on a 75 yard target over a powerful miss with a 6.5, the former at least stands a chance of causing a break. It's all about statistical probabilities.
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Richard59
Well-known member
Having used (no longer do mind) 1000's of Superfasts they felt a lot easier on the bod than the Velocity I once tried, these I did feel were thump as er White Golds (I know from same stable so to speak) , however each of us feels things differently.
As for speed, would a mere mortal really tell the difference on the bulk of sporting targets thrown these days? Only takes a few pellets to take a clay.
As for speed, would a mere mortal really tell the difference on the bulk of sporting targets thrown these days? Only takes a few pellets to take a clay.
El Spavo
Well-known member
Yup, lots of variables and both posts make logically valid post, so duly noted. 
Just got to get good and pointing it in the right place!
Just got to get good and pointing it in the right place!
buze
Active member
Using a 7 1/2 pellet lead pellet at 500ft altitude, I get these from the rather handy calculator I found there: http://www.ctmuzzleloaders.com/ctml_experiments/shot-ballistics/shot-ballistics.html
Yards..Vel....Energy...Drop...Drift....TOF(sec)
0 1350 5.2 0.0 0.0 0.000
10 1036 3.1 0.1 0.0 0.025
15 954 2.6 0.3 0.0 0.040
20 881 2.2 0.6 0.0 0.057
25 819 1.9 1.1 0.0 0.075
30 766 1.7 1.7 0.0 0.093
35 710 1.4 2.5 0.0 0.114
40 658 1.2 3.6 0.0 0.136
45 610 1.1 4.9 0.0 0.159
50 562 0.90 6.6 0.0 0.185
75 360 0.37 23.9 0.0 0.352
100 208 0.12 75.9 0.0 0.627
Yards..Vel....Energy...Drop...Drift....TOF(sec)
0 1450 6.0 0.0 0.0 0.000
10 1070 3.3 0.1 0.0 0.024
15 979 2.7 0.3 0.0 0.039
20 905 2.3 0.6 0.0 0.055
25 842 2.0 1.0 0.0 0.072
30 786 1.8 1.6 0.0 0.090
35 730 1.5 2.3 0.0 0.110
40 678 1.3 3.3 0.0 0.131
45 628 1.1 4.6 0.0 0.154
50 580 0.96 6.2 0.0 0.179
75 373 0.40 22.4 0.0 0.341
100 218 0.14 70.4 0.0 0.604
There’s only 6ms difference at 50 yards. So if we assume a crosser, thrown at 40kmh or ~25mph, it will have traveled 2.6in or 6.666cm during that time — which is pretty much about half a standard clay.
Given that the ‘accepted’ pattern size for a full choke is 40in at 40 yards, we can assume your pattern on a half or 3/4 choke will be well over 50 inches at 50 yards. If your pattern is unlucky enough be JUST on the ‘back’ edge of a clay, the density will be so low that the 6.6cm will hardly make a difference anyway.
So I’d say 100fps is completely negligible for even a “far” clay in terms of time — and also completely negligible in terms of energy.
Now, by far the more interesting piece of data from that calculator is the drift due to a crosswind. Even a pretty slow wind of 2mph will have your shots drifting by 2.7 FOOT, or 32.5” — that’s already 1/2 pattern of offset and very very likely to have much more of an impact on you breaking the clay at all.
Yards..Vel....Energy...Drop...Drift....TOF(sec)
0 1350 5.2 0.0 0.0 0.000
10 1036 3.1 0.1 0.0 0.025
15 954 2.6 0.3 0.0 0.040
20 881 2.2 0.6 0.0 0.057
25 819 1.9 1.1 0.0 0.075
30 766 1.7 1.7 0.0 0.093
35 710 1.4 2.5 0.0 0.114
40 658 1.2 3.6 0.0 0.136
45 610 1.1 4.9 0.0 0.159
50 562 0.90 6.6 0.0 0.185
75 360 0.37 23.9 0.0 0.352
100 208 0.12 75.9 0.0 0.627
Yards..Vel....Energy...Drop...Drift....TOF(sec)
0 1450 6.0 0.0 0.0 0.000
10 1070 3.3 0.1 0.0 0.024
15 979 2.7 0.3 0.0 0.039
20 905 2.3 0.6 0.0 0.055
25 842 2.0 1.0 0.0 0.072
30 786 1.8 1.6 0.0 0.090
35 730 1.5 2.3 0.0 0.110
40 678 1.3 3.3 0.0 0.131
45 628 1.1 4.6 0.0 0.154
50 580 0.96 6.2 0.0 0.179
75 373 0.40 22.4 0.0 0.341
100 218 0.14 70.4 0.0 0.604
There’s only 6ms difference at 50 yards. So if we assume a crosser, thrown at 40kmh or ~25mph, it will have traveled 2.6in or 6.666cm during that time — which is pretty much about half a standard clay.
Given that the ‘accepted’ pattern size for a full choke is 40in at 40 yards, we can assume your pattern on a half or 3/4 choke will be well over 50 inches at 50 yards. If your pattern is unlucky enough be JUST on the ‘back’ edge of a clay, the density will be so low that the 6.6cm will hardly make a difference anyway.
So I’d say 100fps is completely negligible for even a “far” clay in terms of time — and also completely negligible in terms of energy.
Now, by far the more interesting piece of data from that calculator is the drift due to a crosswind. Even a pretty slow wind of 2mph will have your shots drifting by 2.7 FOOT, or 32.5” — that’s already 1/2 pattern of offset and very very likely to have much more of an impact on you breaking the clay at all.
El Spavo
Well-known member
SO what we're saying is that it's all b*llocks, and stated cartridge speed is pretty meaningless so don't waste your money? 
Now watch what you are saying some people think they can tell what choke is in the gun due to the way the gun acts on firing so a change in velocity is easy to detect
MartynB
Well-known member
Just keep buying bigger bangers , when you start flinching , go back one , job sortedSO what we're saying is that it's all b*llocks, and stated cartridge speed is pretty meaningless so don't waste your money?
Will Hewland
Well-known member
I shot some of those 26g Velocity fibres at my local 60 bird straw bungler. Worked well enough but high recoil I thought; more than the 28g fibre Velocity I reckon.
buze
Active member
That's exactly what I was trying to say, with loads of numbers added to make it look I'm cleverSO what we're saying is that it's all b*llocks, and stated cartridge speed is pretty meaningless so don't waste your money?
El Spavo
Well-known member
Got to try out some 26g Velocity bullets last night and they were noticably punchier than the Superfast 27g flavour I've been using recently. The guy I swapped them with so we could both try each other's thought the same too. Website says they're quicker (yeah, yeah, we spoke about this earlier!) so I presume there's more charge or summat in them to make up the space, but I was surprised it was so noticable in a lower weight cartridge.
So, opinion... do the 28g have less recoil?
So, opinion... do the 28g have less recoil?
Will Hewland
Well-known member
El Spavo
Well-known member
Ah, missed that! 
yeah, they surprised me a bit, thought they'd be lighter on the shoulder. Could tell the difference from just a few.
Rhetorically, i Wonder why.
yeah, they surprised me a bit, thought they'd be lighter on the shoulder. Could tell the difference from just a few. Rhetorically, i Wonder why.
