Scientific approach vs. "feel" and subconscious learning....

[EdSolomons]

Practice the more measured approach, and it becomes instinctive. I would say I shoot 1/4ing and going aways with very little other than hand/eye coordination (all the thinking work done outside the cage re hold points and focus zones), however the rest of the presentations I am much more measured and controlled in my approach.

As always, it's a mix of a couple of different approaches that gets the job done.

 

[Hamster]

On the final pair I thought I've got nothing to lose so I'm just going to stare at the clay and let the gun go wherever I put it, with complete disregard to the position of the barrels in relation to the clay. I absolutely destroyed it with one of the most convincing breaks of my round.

Hi Nick, the telling bit is highlighted, I don't believe you can just let rip with complete disregard as such so I don't fully buy into the full fat feel scenario. It is absolutely true that you will often come across such birds and times where you truly feel so in the zone that it feels like you're unthinking yourself into success, but for me it is a tool to fall back on rather than rely on throughout the round. 

George Digweed referred to shooting clays with your head decades ago and you can see what he means but when someone like yourself just attacks and breaks a hard target like that it's easy to forget that you also are in fact subconsciously applying a myriad number of must do's too, only without the clutter of thought. This isn't something that every beginner or relative newcomer can do, you still need to point correctly, call correctly, pick up, move, keep visual focus/contact etc etc, stay fluid in other words or as Salopian perfectly summed it up : co-ordination   and that still only comes with practice.

It's a bit like speaking a foreign language, many of us can get by with one or three, some are pretty damn good at a couple but you can only dream in one. That's when you are so damn fluent you don't think about structuring your sentences but still even then you can trip up if you completely switch your brain off ! What I'm saying is that method (I prefer this to science) is a must regardless, the only difference is how refined that process can become. The very very best in the world appear to no longer be thinking about angles or speeds, whereas the likes of me need to consciously gaze at the birds for a few minutes to plan things out. I think they eventually arrive at a place where things almost reverse around, they only really have to pause and re-evaluate method if they miss. 

 

[** Pending Removal **]

A1 again? Must give this ZZ Helice thing a go, how much is it and how much can I win? And to ensure its relevant to this thread, should I trust my sub conscious for my first go or is there any scientific advice you can give me?

First cross your fingers in your head.Second - speak nicely to the Helice gods.

Third - do whatever comes naturally...

Fourth - hope for the best

.....sent from M25.......wheeeeeeeeee!

(Testing the new mota)

:laugh:

 

[psych4shooting]

There is a huge amount of science surround this, especially training for it. The use of kinesthetic visualisation for instance is training the subconscious to create the perfect reaction through feel - in a shooting instance you can visualise shooting a target, but you strip it back to basics, so the feel of the gun, the movement of the body and it is very much about touch and feel. Although we are very conscious about what we do in general, when the subconscious runs it is repeating a programme that you have run over and over again (presuming that the programme is the correct programme) then the outcome should be the perfect shot.

I liken it to driving a car, most of the time you are unaware of gear changes and probably on a motorway journey parts of the journey were a blur - however should something have occured in those moments you would have reacted. The brain will run all elements of programmed response and mostly at the right time. But to emphasise the touch & feel of subconscious, again I use a car to illustrate, if you were to left foot break (dont do this at speed!!), but the whole feel of this is alien and in most cases you stop the car with a judder and the car will stop quicker than a right foot break.

For shooting such techniques of visualisation and pre-shot routine lead to a stronger probablility of a sub-cosncious reaction to the visual cue - ie the clay being released (applicable in all the clay disciplines), although those where the target has a pre-determined path the subconsious can work even greater - skeet & sporting, where a visualisation exercise has been performed.

Many will be asking how do you create the subconscious reaction? The answer is not a simple one, but if you use visualisation skills coupled with your technical training and you perfect the "feel" of the shot, then the subsconscious reaction will occur more times than leaving it to change or trying to work on instinct. Conscious thoughts up until the cue of calling Pull are very beneficial, but once you have called pull you need to be able to let the subconsious programme run. In the current study I am conducting in "trigger freeze" we are seeing that the subconscious is actually taking over the thought process and creating a blocked mental pathway that leads to the flinch reaction, so the subconscious is not always beneficial.

I read with interest another post on the forum which basically said you could shot yourself better - but I totally disagree with that statement, because all you do is practice the same thing and it does not take into account situations that are not environmental, so pressure of a competition, shooting in a squad, having no birds, having a slow squad. You need to build all scenarios into your technical and mental training routines, so that you can through time start to perfect a more controlled subconscious reaction.

 

[jake.keeling]

Must admit this Practice scientifically then let it happen in competition thing can work. But, you really can't rely on it, I did it to great effect a few months ago, but then couldn't do it next time, because I was trying to do it!

Need some Zen Archery lessons maybe.

 

[Les53]

There is a huge amount of science surround this, especially training for it. The use of kinesthetic visualisation for instance is training the subconscious to create the perfect reaction through feel - in a shooting instance you can visualise shooting a target, but you strip it back to basics, so the feel of the gun, the movement of the body and it is very much about touch and feel. Although we are very conscious about what we do in general, when the subconscious runs it is repeating a programme that you have run over and over again (presuming that the programme is the correct programme) then the outcome should be the perfect shot.

I liken it to driving a car, most of the time you are unaware of gear changes and probably on a motorway journey parts of the journey were a blur - however should something have occured in those moments you would have reacted. The brain will run all elements of programmed response and mostly at the right time. But to emphasise the touch & feel of subconscious, again I use a car to illustrate, if you were to left foot break (dont do this at speed!!), but the whole feel of this is alien and in most cases you stop the car with a judder and the car will stop quicker than a right foot break.

For shooting such techniques of visualisation and pre-shot routine lead to a stronger probablility of a sub-cosncious reaction to the visual cue - ie the clay being released (applicable in all the clay disciplines), although those where the target has a pre-determined path the subconsious can work even greater - skeet & sporting, where a visualisation exercise has been performed.

Many will be asking how do you create the subconscious reaction? The answer is not a simple one, but if you use visualisation skills coupled with your technical training and you perfect the "feel" of the shot, then the subsconscious reaction will occur more times than leaving it to change or trying to work on instinct. Conscious thoughts up until the cue of calling Pull are very beneficial, but once you have called pull you need to be able to let the subconsious programme run. In the current study I am conducting in "trigger freeze" we are seeing that the subconscious is actually taking over the thought process and creating a blocked mental pathway that leads to the flinch reaction, so the subconscious is not always beneficial.

I read with interest another post on the forum which basically said you could shot yourself better - but I totally disagree with that statement, because all you do is practice the same thing and it does not take into account situations that are not environmental, so pressure of a competition, shooting in a squad, having no birds, having a slow squad. You need to build all scenarios into your technical and mental training routines, so that you can through time start to perfect a more controlled subconscious reaction.

Phil I know where you're coming from! When I'm having a good shoot, it seems as though I do nothing at all. I just put the gun to the face and shoulder, in a position that feels "right", I don't even check bead alignment, then I just call for the bird and everything from then on happens all by itself, I don't consciously move the gun or pull the trigger! If I fart about and think about things, and if I see any part of the gun after I call, well it will all fall to bits just as sure as god made little green apples!

 

[ips]

i am a great believer in letting it happen with no conscious input i know for an absolute fact that if i think about it too much i won't hit a thing. i do however spend a lot of time analysing things away from the shoot in the hope that if i think about it enough it will stick in my sub conscious. i definitely shoot my best when i am in the let it happen mode of that i have no doubt at all. analyse anything whilst you are in pre shot routine or pulling the trigger and its all over IMO

edit for poor grammar and spellin

 

[jxf]

I just wave the gun in the general direction of the clay and shoot.  Seems to work quite well, though I only shoot for fun and am certainly not a great shot.  But I have tried using the sights and actually aiming and I missed every time...

 

[Will Hewland]

I just wave the gun in the general direction of the clay and shoot.  Seems to work quite well, though I only shoot for fun and am certainly not a great shot.  But I have tried using the sights and actually aiming and I missed every time...

Yep, those two methods won't take you far!

 

[jxf]

Yep, those two methods won't take you far!

Worked quite well in a flush though!  :biggrin:

 

[T.C.]

I shot the Westfield 120 ESP Registered on Sunday and had a chance to test myself on some great targets. One particular stand (stand 1 I think) in the corner at the top had a pacey low right to left white clay that had a slight loop to its trajectory followed by a slower, but higher, left to right chandelle. The first target really got the better of me for the first three pairs; giving it what I thought it needed, then double that amount, then half the original amount.

On the final pair I thought I've got nothing to lose so I'm just going to stare at the clay and let the gun go wherever I put it, with complete disregard to the position of the barrels in relation to the clay. I absolutely destroyed it with one of the most convincing breaks of my round.

Clearly there were very different approaches used with varying results, but to put them into specific categories I would classify trying to use an exact amount of leed as "scientific" and forcing yourself to focus on the clay as shooting instinctively or with "feel". If I had to assess the round as a whole I would say my approach was probably 80% scientific and 20% feel; although the "feel" shots all resulted in broken targets whereas the scientific ones did not always.

What percentage of each approach (scientific vs. feel) does your shooting have?

A couple of weeks ago I shot Southdown with the split of approach between scientific/feel probably 20%/80%, with my overall score 20% higher than at Westfield. I have no doubt which approach is favourable, but I wonder what evidence there is (if any) of being able to learn sight pictures subconsciously whilst shooting instinctively? If none, is it commonplace to shoot scientifically in practice and hope that you can revert to instinctive shooting come the day of the competition?

Hi Nicky T. Are you sure that you were not falling into the trap of measuring the lead , or even looking back to the gun. Before deciding that I have a solution to a shooting problem I like to go back to the stand and repeat the hit successfully several times so that I know my solution is repeatable and not just luck!

As for subconscious shooting, if you can hit the clay without having to look the lead up in a book or ask someone nearby, you must have shot subconsciously.

The secret is in what you train your subconscious to do!