Martinj
Well-known member
http://www.daviddaleshooting.co.uk/index David lives in Brookwood, I knew him as a teenager many years ago, no idea what he charges, can't hurt to ask.
Advice on coach
- Thread starter AJB Temple
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Martinj
Well-known member
I felt the need to get this off my chest, sorry about this:
I see shooting as an art comprising a number of different processes which all need to come together in a split second. To be consistent you need to work on footwork, stance and all the preparation the coach will tell you about and all this contributes towards a consistent approach and you need to get it right. While practising this should become second nature after a while.
To state the obvious, you can get all of the above right and still miss in front or behind (and above and below) because you are not reading the target correctly and I still think this is the reason for most misses. I'm sure that, even after decades of shooting, I mostly miss in front or behind. This is where hours and hours of practise over weeks, months and years help by repeatedly having that sight picture with the reward of a break (or not.) You are a musician so you'll understand the need for practise:-
""Gladwell estimates that the Beatles put in 10,000 hours of practice playing in Hamburg in the early 1960s, and that Bill Gates put in 10,000 hours of programming work before founding Microsoft. Hence the 10,000 hour rule was born: put in your 10,000 hours of practice, and become an expert in a given field.""
I'm not suggesting that you do 10,000 hours but I guess the point I'm making is that although a coach will undoubtedly help, once you have the basics right there is nothing like many-many hours of fun trying to get it right, and that the amount of practise you do largely determines the levels you will reach. To a degree, the person shooting twice a week will get better results than the person shooting twice a month, however if two people are doing the same hours of practise then their backlog of hours will come into account, the person with 10000 hours of experience under his belt should have the advantage over the person with only 1000 hours.
I see shooting as an art comprising a number of different processes which all need to come together in a split second. To be consistent you need to work on footwork, stance and all the preparation the coach will tell you about and all this contributes towards a consistent approach and you need to get it right. While practising this should become second nature after a while.
To state the obvious, you can get all of the above right and still miss in front or behind (and above and below) because you are not reading the target correctly and I still think this is the reason for most misses. I'm sure that, even after decades of shooting, I mostly miss in front or behind. This is where hours and hours of practise over weeks, months and years help by repeatedly having that sight picture with the reward of a break (or not.) You are a musician so you'll understand the need for practise:-
""Gladwell estimates that the Beatles put in 10,000 hours of practice playing in Hamburg in the early 1960s, and that Bill Gates put in 10,000 hours of programming work before founding Microsoft. Hence the 10,000 hour rule was born: put in your 10,000 hours of practice, and become an expert in a given field.""
I'm not suggesting that you do 10,000 hours but I guess the point I'm making is that although a coach will undoubtedly help, once you have the basics right there is nothing like many-many hours of fun trying to get it right, and that the amount of practise you do largely determines the levels you will reach. To a degree, the person shooting twice a week will get better results than the person shooting twice a month, however if two people are doing the same hours of practise then their backlog of hours will come into account, the person with 10000 hours of experience under his belt should have the advantage over the person with only 1000 hours.
AJB Temple
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- Jul 20, 2019
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- 17
Martin. Thank you. However, let me explain. I am a novice. I wanted to instil good practice at the outset. So a few lessons is good, but a lot of that for me is about learning the ground and trap layout at my local club in an effective way. I don't know anyone there, so it is also a good way of me getting integrated.
I also know, from learning classical piano since childhood, (along with violin and guitar) that a lot of people practice very inefficiently. Many of them to do not have an effective work plan and frequently they practice their mistakes - often not realising that they are doing it. This translates directly to shooting I expect.
For this reason the oft touted 10,000 hours suggestion is misleading. Someone with a rigorous practice plan will achieve their objectives a great deal quicker as they are not wasting hours on ineffective or error laden practice. I had an extremely rigorous Russian teacher when I was doing my performance diploma years ago, and she drilled into me get your technique spot on straight away. "Do not repeat your mistakes". To do that I need to identify both the mistake and the actual cause of my mistakes and correct them effectively. This is best done with a good coach. If they are anything like piano teachers some are fantastic, most average, and some useless.
I take your point about not reading the target correctly. However, I have been reading the highly recommended Break Clays book by Chris Bathe. He attributes a lot of miss issues to variable or incorrect head position (related to poor mount). This is addressed very logically in chapter 7 and is logically persuasive to me as I have followed his exercises and they do make sense to me. (Pages 60 and 61). There is a simple finger exercise that shows what happens to gun point with even fractional head movements.
Therefore I am working hard on good, consistent and calm position and mount and having a coach on hand means, I hope, that I will build in good muscle memory quite quickly. I reckon I am shooting two hours a week. 10,000 hours of shooting equates to 96 years, which at a guess is longer than I have left to live by quite some way, so I am hoping I can speed it up a bit
I also know, from learning classical piano since childhood, (along with violin and guitar) that a lot of people practice very inefficiently. Many of them to do not have an effective work plan and frequently they practice their mistakes - often not realising that they are doing it. This translates directly to shooting I expect.
For this reason the oft touted 10,000 hours suggestion is misleading. Someone with a rigorous practice plan will achieve their objectives a great deal quicker as they are not wasting hours on ineffective or error laden practice. I had an extremely rigorous Russian teacher when I was doing my performance diploma years ago, and she drilled into me get your technique spot on straight away. "Do not repeat your mistakes". To do that I need to identify both the mistake and the actual cause of my mistakes and correct them effectively. This is best done with a good coach. If they are anything like piano teachers some are fantastic, most average, and some useless.
I take your point about not reading the target correctly. However, I have been reading the highly recommended Break Clays book by Chris Bathe. He attributes a lot of miss issues to variable or incorrect head position (related to poor mount). This is addressed very logically in chapter 7 and is logically persuasive to me as I have followed his exercises and they do make sense to me. (Pages 60 and 61). There is a simple finger exercise that shows what happens to gun point with even fractional head movements.
Therefore I am working hard on good, consistent and calm position and mount and having a coach on hand means, I hope, that I will build in good muscle memory quite quickly. I reckon I am shooting two hours a week. 10,000 hours of shooting equates to 96 years, which at a guess is longer than I have left to live by quite some way, so I am hoping I can speed it up a bit
Martinj
Well-known member
I'm not disagreeing with anything you say :smile:
Will Hewland
Well-known member
This (above) is exactly why one cant coach on a forum. You have to see the shooter.
I've seen shooters miss (or have continued poor performance) for almost every conceivable reason. Some have a perfect style, where they have clearly read the books, seen you tube, copy top shots or had lessons, but just don't get the sight picture or move correctly to connect with the clay. Others hopelessly never put their face on the gun, stand incorrectly then flick the gun around like a whip. Both shooters will likely give the same account of themselves on a forum when they describe what they do!
I myself am capable of winning HG at a decent registered shoot while on another day my score wouldn't take B class honours. If I saw a video of myself I would tell you what was wrong that day, but clearly didn't feel it at the time.
I totally agree with occasional coaching to put you on the right track and then knock you back in shape again a while later. I've told people I have coached "now go away and maybe we have another session in three months" . Basics must be right but in the end, you have to be able to do it by yourself and practice and self adjustment is critical.
I've seen shooters miss (or have continued poor performance) for almost every conceivable reason. Some have a perfect style, where they have clearly read the books, seen you tube, copy top shots or had lessons, but just don't get the sight picture or move correctly to connect with the clay. Others hopelessly never put their face on the gun, stand incorrectly then flick the gun around like a whip. Both shooters will likely give the same account of themselves on a forum when they describe what they do!
I myself am capable of winning HG at a decent registered shoot while on another day my score wouldn't take B class honours. If I saw a video of myself I would tell you what was wrong that day, but clearly didn't feel it at the time.
I totally agree with occasional coaching to put you on the right track and then knock you back in shape again a while later. I've told people I have coached "now go away and maybe we have another session in three months" . Basics must be right but in the end, you have to be able to do it by yourself and practice and self adjustment is critical.
El Spavo
Well-known member
Yup, self assessment is surely the key to self improvement.
Wonko the Sane
Well-known member
That is a waste of time and actually gives you nothing. Fundamentals of fit and mount and process are much more important that learning a ground. AFAIC the best places for the beginner to learn are trap and skeet fields where the emphasis can be on proper technique/process and NOT trying to do that while "learning" some goofy target presentation. If you cannot consistently smoke low7 on the skeet field you def need a new coach
JMO of course
that presumes a standard for comparison
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ehb102
Well-known member
The ten thousand hours thing is rhubarb btw. No, I'm not a fan of Mr Gladwell. That number was an average of the number of hours elite performers spent practising. Quality of practice matters too.
El Spavo
Well-known member
If you don't know if you're getting better in yourself once you've got the hang of something then what's the point in anything as a hobby? Where's the joy in someone else just telling you, "that's good" all the time?
Unless you're unfortunate enough to be a bit obsessed solely with what others think, the standard is what you set yourself.
Wonko the Sane
Well-known member
It's been my observation that few people actually have a basic skill set that provides them with a realistic base for self-evaluation. Scores are almost always the criteria and scores only indicate a current level of proficiency (comprised of a number of components) and not ability.
AJB Temple
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Wonko, you have to remember I am a beginner. So things like a routine through the stands that I can practice on my own, is useful. Just things like operating the clay release system (many traps have multiple options) is a tad confusing if you have never done it before. Things many people may take for granted, I probably don't know.
ips
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- Jul 19, 2012
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I have never had any coaching so i cant really comment however i do now act as minder for inexperienced guns on game days and the occasional instructing job on corporate days and i try to work with what's in front of me. So i would say go with your gut feeling, if your happy that the coach is experienced and you feel that you can work with him or her and what they advise makes sense then your sorted.
Wonko the Sane
Well-known member
What I was trying to say was that as a beginner doing one thing at a time and learning to mount/shoot properly is far easier and more likely successful if you eliminate the variable target path from the operation. Fun as it may be to stroll around the stands if that is ongoing before you actually learn how to use the GUN then you may be blowing a lot of holes in the air to no effect. Of course it's your $
a sorta walk/run kinda thing y'know?
just sayin'
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Cosmicblue
Well-known member
I've had a lot of lessons...probably north of 100... In truth when I 1st started shooting I didn't have any friends that shot so every Saturday I'd head off and have an hour's 'therapy' - something different from the day job (IT). Eventually I put a post on PW that I was a new shooter wanted to find a shooting buddy in Warwickshire...it worked. I still have the odd lesson now - one picks up bad habits and it's good to have a fresh view occasionally.
It doesn't follow that a very good, top shot, is also a good coach - effective teaching is a skill like any other. Some of the top shots are very good coaches - Carl Bloxham and Ben Husthwaite to name just two. Did do a Master Class with Ben earlier this year - was genuinely useful and also very good value.
I would say (from experience) that a coach that starts off from scratch without paying attention to discovering which is your master-eye and ensuring that whatever gun you are being taught with is reasonable fit is probably, ultimately, not going to get you where you want to be. The ground you use also has a bearing on the outcome - you want one that has dedicated training stands - having a lesson with a practice squad looking over your shoulder is distracting. It took me ages to get used to being watched....
Being coached to read target presentations with all the senses - hearing the trap, figuring out the optimal break-point and where the gun needed to be as start point are all useful skills that a good coach will provide. If you don't get this - change coach.
It doesn't follow that a very good, top shot, is also a good coach - effective teaching is a skill like any other. Some of the top shots are very good coaches - Carl Bloxham and Ben Husthwaite to name just two. Did do a Master Class with Ben earlier this year - was genuinely useful and also very good value.
I would say (from experience) that a coach that starts off from scratch without paying attention to discovering which is your master-eye and ensuring that whatever gun you are being taught with is reasonable fit is probably, ultimately, not going to get you where you want to be. The ground you use also has a bearing on the outcome - you want one that has dedicated training stands - having a lesson with a practice squad looking over your shoulder is distracting. It took me ages to get used to being watched....
Being coached to read target presentations with all the senses - hearing the trap, figuring out the optimal break-point and where the gun needed to be as start point are all useful skills that a good coach will provide. If you don't get this - change coach.
AJB Temple
Member
- Joined
- Jul 20, 2019
- Messages
- 17
What the coach does for me:
Check gun fit (done proper in shop, so OK) and eye dominance
Go on and on and on about gun mount, stance, etc. This is good and ingrains habit quickly.
Teaches me about safety.
Teaches me how to observe, plan and shoot different target types.
Gives me a routine on a few traps I can practice on my own.
Explains in detail his observations from each shot and makes sure I understand why I miss, if I do, and how to correct it.
Makes sure I DO correct it.
Provides encouragement,
Gives me alternative methods for things I find hard (rabbits - very inconsistent).
Gives me advice on cartridges.
Check gun fit (done proper in shop, so OK) and eye dominance
Go on and on and on about gun mount, stance, etc. This is good and ingrains habit quickly.
Teaches me about safety.
Teaches me how to observe, plan and shoot different target types.
Gives me a routine on a few traps I can practice on my own.
Explains in detail his observations from each shot and makes sure I understand why I miss, if I do, and how to correct it.
Makes sure I DO correct it.
Provides encouragement,
Gives me alternative methods for things I find hard (rabbits - very inconsistent).
Gives me advice on cartridges.
