Do beretta pattern tightly

dr. lecter said:

a measurement of choke constriction  is  equal  across all manufactures  !      cartridges can  adjust patterns   slightly .    

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I'm not sure that either of those statements is true.

Now, I can't say about others and their experiences but mine tend to indicate that obsessing over minutia is unlikely to be significantly productive to make the effort worthwhile.  At this time I'm only shooting Perazzis - OK the 682 now and then - some have fixed chokes, some have screw-ins (factory), and some have both.  I never pattern for anything but POI since I have come to terms with Perazzi and Beretta choke designations and just accept them for what they are.  I've gathered one of everything for each gun that uses screw-ins but what is in the gun is usually SKT/SKT if I'm using the gun for skeet, and prolly 4,5,or6/8 for trap or ZZ.  The fixed choke guns all have some version of F in the second barrel and that seems to work just fine with whatever is in the first.  My selection in carts is based on price tho there are a couple brands that I avoid as they seem to have easily pierced primers.  Cheap Thrifty is good and the likelihood of the cart affecting my performance is small.

That is all based on the limitations of the current state of the wiring/meat of course, and knowing that the gun is certainly more capable than am I.

YMMV

Earlier in this thread I wrote "I have conflicting evidence regarding a single example, that being Beretta Mobilchoke guns. If the weather cooperates, I hope to have something for readers here before ice completely takes over in Minnesota." and I just barely made it; winter's here, way too soon again!

A few years ago I compared patterning results from Beretta Mobil® and Optima® chokes and the Mobil gun shot a lot tighter than the Optima one. Since I'd shot the Optima with a dozen or more different brands of tubes and had never seen anything unusual, I decided there was probably a mistake and scheduled a retest "someday."

"Someday" rolled around last Monday with temperatures hovering around 6 degrees C. and heading down. I knew that the cold temperatures would reduce the pattern percentages I would get, but everything was done in a single afternoon so testing conditions were equal. 

I shot Winchester AA's 3/7 1/2 shells from 2016 from a Mobil-choke Beretta 682 and a Beretta Optima 391. I shoot ten shots from a measured 40 yards off a rest at 48" wide paper and photograph the patterns with a Nikon 800E camera. I analyze my results with Dr. Jones' program Shotgun Insight.

Had I shot but a couple of shots and tried to compare the two guns, I would have gotten nowhere even if I had counted pellets, and eye-balling patterns is even more useless.



But take that mish-mash of confusion, take those counted pellets and organize the data so we can understand them, and look what we get!



As I expected, there was no difference in the performance of these Mobil and Oprima guns as many previous tests had led me to expect.

I concentrate on pattern percentage because I'm a trapshooter and at long yardage, a lot of pellets is what you need and everything else is beside the point. But it's really not, since the pattern percentage is tied up with the other two measures of pattern performance, evennesss (central thickening):

http://claytargettesting.com/Terms/pdfs/Central Thickening.pdf

and pattern spread (75% diameter):

http://claytargettesting.com/Terms/pdfs/SeventyFivePercentDiameter.pdf

As Winchester's Ed Lowry wrote in American Rifleman in the 80s, if you know pattern percentages over a lot of shots, you know everything there is to know about those patterns. 

The question posed by the thread is not about pattern percentages, but about pattern "tightnesss," that is, pattern spread.

You'll have little more luck determining patterns spread with a couple of shots than you would have had with pattern percentage.



Again, let's shoot enough to find out what's happening and organize the data.



Once again, my expectation of equal performance between the guns was met.

But there's something here that some here may not accept, namely that  pattern spread and pattern percentage are linked, meaning that you can't, over a reasonable number of patterns, get what everyone wants,  higher-percentage patterns that are more-widely spread. What's my evidence?

Here are the Mobil patterns:



And here the Optima patterns:



And since they are all linked, you can't avoid "hot centers" with high-percentage, tight patterns either, as you will see if you think about it. 

Remember, these Beretta patterns were shot in early-winter weather and so exhibit lower percentages and are more widely spread than they would have been in summer. Informally apply a correction for temperature and look this over and see that not only do these two guns shoot alike, but they also shoot like other representative trapguns over many years of production. 

http://claytargettesting.com/Bore_Diameter/Bore_Diameter.pdf

So I think it's unlikely that serious testing would show that Berettas shoot "tighter" than other guns, in general. However, evidence obtained with the care described here would go a long way toward convincing me, of course.

Overall, guns with similar constrictions shoot about the same regardless of "modern" bore diameters and all the rest. The real differences in gun performance lie in the shells they shoot.

Thank you for your patience and attention.

Jezek

Dannymac said:

I have been informed by more knowledge shooters that beretta pattern  tightly.  Is this true . I normally use 1/4 and 1/2 but have been informed that I should change to skeet and cylinder to improve my score . Is this fact or fiction 

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Yes, fact.

Tighter chokes always patter tighter :w00t:

Deleted in favor of re-thinking.

Today I shot 150 sporting clays of all presentations  with sk & sk in my Mobil choked 682 .These chokes measure the same as Teague Sk in my Miroku but it is 18.4 bore whereas the 682 is 18.3,thus giving a few thou less actual constriction.Every target could be killed convincingly with Hull Superfast fibres .I have not patterned it yet but the results confirm to me that the Beretta does shoot tight choke for choke .I found exactly the same with my A303 Sporter too.

So, Mr. Winston, in light of the comments you have generally received over time regarding your extensive and thorough examination of reality vs/ myth in shotgun performance do you have any reason to think that you have in any way recognizably enlightened the "man on the street" shotgun enthusiast?

Some success, Wonko. I think, based on our videos,  many have turned their backs on "target break reading for information about where the pellets that missed the target were centered," or "TBR."  The strongest resistance comes, unfortunately, from people who teach others to shoot, both for payment and as youth coaches. I've had more than one refuse to look at the videos on the laptop I carry around, saying  "I won't watch them; I know they can't be right."

13-yard POI testing has taken over in the US and pattern-estimation from that distance is gaining traction. It is, after all, the only practical way people can find out if their guns are working as they think they are. (http://www.claytargettesting.com/POI/Point_of_Impact_and_Pattern_Testing_at_13_Yards.pdf)

Certainly, chronographs and radar guns have taken over target setting, though I wish more setters would read the rulebook which says how to do it. That was a worthwhile, multi-year task. (http://www.claytargettesting.com/study1/pages/study1a.html) (http://www.claytargettesting.com/study1/study1.2.pdf) (http://www.claytargettesting.com/study1/study1.3.pdf)

I cannot make a dent in "60/40", "70/30", "80/20" and so on. Just  look at the following NS has developed with the totally nutty "POI testing ez-way" garbage he ruthlessly promotes.  it's unimaginable how people fall over them selves in their hurry to tell him how much it has helped them.

The amazing thing is I can't even do it in person. Here's a scene which has played out countless times at Metro over the last 15 years:

Hopeful shooter: "I see you down here at the pattern board all the time; can you help me test the POI of my new shotgun? I'm not sure it shoots straight."

NW: "Sure; let's sit you down here on the stool behind this bench rest and we'll see what's going on. What do you see when you sight down it? "

(15 or 30 minutes later)

NW: OK, that's it. As you see, we've gotten your gun to shoot straight and a little high - call it "an inch or so high" -which is fine while you get used to it. It took some major work to get the shot centered right-to-left and coaxing the comb and rib to work in harmony vertically, but it's under control now and will stay that way as long as you can quit messing with it. Don't lose those notes we took; they will remind you how we got there. 

HS: "Is that 80/20? Most of the guys on my league team shoot 80/20."

NW. " The "guys on your league team" are not likely to have any idea where their guns shoot and are just making it up. I won't talk any of that "percent high" mumbo-jumbo.  Not a word. Your gun shoots a little high and you have seen it and know it's true. Be satisfied with that; all the rest is nonsense."

HS: "But you would warn me if it's not 80/20, wouldn't you?"

NW"  "Stop it! Stop it! Stop it! Your gun shoots a little high and straight and now you know how to change that if you ever need to."

As we walk back to the clubhouse, we meet a member of HS's league team, Bob.

Bob: "Hey, HS, did you finally iron out the POI problem that worried you? Where does it shoot?

HS, "Oh yes, it was pretty-much dialed right in at 80/20 all the time,  just like I always thought."

NW: Does anyone have a club?

Yours in Sport,

Jezek

Garwood said:

Today I shot 150 sporting clays of all presentations  with sk & sk in my Mobil choked 682 .These chokes measure the same as Teague Sk in my Miroku but it is 18.4 bore whereas the 682 is 18.3,thus giving a few thou less actual constriction.Every target could be killed convincingly with Hull Superfast fibres .I have not patterned it yet but the results confirm to me that the Beretta does shoot tight choke for choke .I found exactly the same with my A303 Sporter too.

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Honestly how do you come to that conclusion ? All you have done is hit the target... did you break all the targets? What about targets that you did not hit... did that have anything at all to do with the constriction of the choke you were using?

So at this moment we have 6 for Yes and 2 for No

Are things like this settled by votes?

Jezek

Jezek said:

Are things like this settled by votes?

Jezek

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Our entire lives are governed by group consent.  There is no reason for anyone to think that the physical universe is any different - you need only to examine ANY topic, evolution, climate change, coal power plants, string theory, absolutely ANY social topic to know that opinion, not fact, is the guiding light.   :superstition:

deal with it  :bow:    :thumbsu:

Dannymac, you were advised to switch to "skeet and cylinder."  That sounds easy and straightforward enough. There are likely myriad degrees of "skeet" choking but they are all pretty open I'd guess and all types of "cylinder" should so much the same as to be interchangeable, right? After all, what could be more simple than "cylinder?"

Or so went my thinking in the spring of 2012. Pattern-testing trap-appropriate chokes had shown a lot of inter-brand consistency, though I'd been surprised by the similarity between the performance of full/extra full and modified. Unmasking a few internet-mountebanks had been fun, but my results remained a good deal more variable than I was, at that time, inclined to accept. 

Why not simplify the task and study open chokes starting with the simplest, the cylinder choke?

I'd always chaffed a bit at reading "true cylinder" which sounded like an affectation, but let's make a couple of "true cylinder" guns and see how they shoot. I took barrels from an old Remington 870 and a Beretta 303 and used a Sunnen connecting-rod machine to hone consistent and apparently identical holes leaving no measurable choke at all.  I had some Winchester light 8's of good performance and set out with them to Metro Gun Club to test "true cylinders."

The first job was to establish an invariant gun-to-patternboard distance for this and all subsequent tests. I knew what to expect from full chokes a 40 yards; why not aim for the same sort of pattern percentages with open chokes? Pattern percentage and spread are closely linked and I had already settled on 75% diameter: (http://www.claytargettesting.com/Terms/pdfs/SeventyFivePercentDiameter.pdf) as my primary statistic since it's the spread of pellets that interests skeet and SC shooters in contrast trapshooters who want pattern percentages to think about. 

I started at 22 yards which was a bit too far, but 20 yards gave me what I was after.



It  had taken a while to get the distance right, but it was clear that they shot just alike and so, at least in this very limited case, we can reject the theory that Berettas intrinsically shoot tighter for some inexplicable reason.

 

and 20 yards gave me the long-yardage match I was after.



As I was honing the Beretta 303 barrel, I paused to check the effect at three constrictions:



I have read assertions that cylinder chokes are too variable and unpredictable to be of any use so gunmakers use 0.002" restrictions instead to prevent this. In this test I saw support no for those stories; cylinder chokes work just fine.

The test of screw-in cylinder choke tubes did produce something interesting.



In almost all cases, interchangeable "cylinder" tubes shot more like 0.005" fixed chokes, perhaps reflecting the fact that they have to start bigger than the bore to ensure safe shot-passage.

But back to the question of Berettas "shooting tight."  Where did the Beretta Optima "cylinder" tube fit in this group?



There it is, right at the bottom producing 75% diameters about 2 inches smaller than other cylinder choke tubes! In this case, the Beretta did actually shoot tighter. 

Notable  was the special "European Skeet" barrel I had for the Beretta 303. It produced the same degree of wide patterns as did the 870 cylinder gun.



And at the other end of success was the Briley Diffusor choke tube.



It was said the "Tula" chokes needed fiber wads to show their stuff and maybe that's so. But when I shot this one with the punishing fiber-wad Federal T-121's it wasn't worth it. With plastic wads, I guess I'll just shoot the 303, not the K80.



I hope readers here found something interesting here; thank you for your patience and attention.

Jezek

Addendum

Since small differences in close patterning can have such a large effect on results, so estimation or "pacing" won't do, I've laid out some painted guides to help shooters at Metro Gun Club in Blaine, Minnesota, learn what they hope to find out. Paired with a pattern box supplied  with rolls of 48" paper, I think it is unmatched in the US.





Since real pattern-testing is a lot of tiring work, it was always nice to have a licensed driver to get me home safe.

In 1970, well-known shooter Derek Partridge wrote in Gun World (http://fowlershotgunning.com/up-tight-overchoking/) : “English barrel-chokers found that a barrel totally devoid of choke produces uncontrolled and widely varying patterns.”

Another  example of warnings about cylinder chokes, this from Jim Muller's blog:

Until you do this exercise, you will never entirely grasp what I'm claiming. I am talking about BIG holes in the pattern, some patterns are like a Modified choke is installed in the barrel, next shot looks picture perfect, next shot has holes and flyers so big, you could fit two open faced battues thru it. The point of my test is this, EVERYTIME you shoot Threads, or a Cylinder Choke or a Negative Choke, you have no idea what you are actually placing on that target. It is risky at best! The reason I developed the U0 is because I learned that .002 constriction accompanied with my geometry and materials will give you the largest, most consistent and predictable pattern obtainable thru every gun. Thanks to our customers success stories, we have added the U0 to our line of chokes.

I found none of this. For example, the occurrence of holes is just random and varied from 2 to 6 in ten patterns, averaging 4. 



and in this test, the consistency and variability of the patterns was about the same in all cases.



Jezek

Jimmy the snake oil salesman proved wrong again,whatever will all the fanboys do  :secret: h34r:

Jezek said:

In almost all cases, interchangeable "cylinder" tubes shot more like 0.005" fixed chokes, perhaps reflecting the fact that they have to start bigger than the bore to ensure safe shot-passage.

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I will continue to contend that the "big" juncture between the bore and the tube entry functions as a jug choke.  The deposition of plastic from the wads at that point in the tube is not something I've ever seen with a fixed choke.  Something has to be happening there to the shot column besides like enough gas blowby to melt the wad base.

BTW the "SKT" choke tubes from Perazzi that I use in the MT6 measure 0.724" (just like the bore) and the "CYL" tubes measure the same.  The only difference is that the SKT things have the advertised pattern enhancing (I'm sure!) blunderbuss shape near the muzzle that the CYL do not.  I have a few Beretta tubes that I'll check later but IIRC they were blunderbuss things too.  They are all the old Mobile pattern and one Briley skt1.

Jezek said:

It was said the "Tula" chokes needed fiber wads to show their stuff and maybe that's so. But when I shot this one with the punishing fiber-wad Federal T-121's it wasn't worth it. With plastic wads, I guess I just shoot the 303, not the K80.

Click to expand...

I'd really be interested to know the rationale for that.  I have seen that the plastic does deposit where the barrel initially opens into the Tula choke but no depo anywhere further along - presumably gas blowby melting the wad base like the screw-ins.  But that of course is in a Perazzi Tula barrel and I'm certain that there is a clear superiority there over some kraut product.  I openly admit as before that I pattern only for POI as my meager skill set is unlikely to benefit much from a couple % or a couple inches - all of that likely being overriden by my incredibly cavalier selection of  cartridges.

It would seem to me that a real market coup would be in order if one of the tube magicians would incorporate a Tula-like conformation in a (of course) extended screw-in.  I mean the pattern enhancement would surely be nothing less than staggering!!!  :hyper:

Can certainly see that the Jug choke effect could be a factor in it all .

I thank the good lord that my gun is fixed choke     Although I know all my near misses are not choke related anyway... or are they ?? 

jwpzx9r said:

I thank the good lord that my gun is fixed choke     Although I know all my near misses are not choke related anyway... or are they ?? 

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Of course choke is the prob.  You're choking.

[SIZE=14pt]I know this took a while but I was busy watching futbol games.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]So here are some Beretta and Perazzi CYL and SK tubes – measurements proceed from entry to muzzle.  [/SIZE]I used a Stan Baker Barrel Reader for the #’s, calibrated to 0.800” with a check tube that was verified with three different dial calipers.  Diameters are in inches.

[SIZE=14pt]Beretta marked PB-CL-SPC ****  [/SIZE]50mm  no guess what “SPC” means

[SIZE=14pt]0.736 -> 0.7215 @ 40mm -> 0.7215  [/SIZE]so not so cylinder for a 0.724 bore

[SIZE=14pt]Perazzi  [/SIZE]Type 2 marked “0” which I presume to indicate CYL  45mm

[SIZE=14pt]0.738 -> 0.7245 @ 26mm -> 0.725  [/SIZE]so CYL’ish some of the way

[SIZE=14pt]Those are the only two CYL that I have.  [/SIZE]Just how “CYL” they may be is something left to those who might pursue it further – not me

[SIZE=14pt]And now a few skeet chokes that are kinda but not the same[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]Briley extended marked SK1  [/SIZE]70mm

[SIZE=14pt]0.727(close fit!) -> 0.712 @ 52mm -> 0.718  [/SIZE]   seems like a tight SK

[SIZE=14pt] [/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]Beretta  [/SIZE]early Mobile marked only SK    50mm

[SIZE=14pt]0.739 -> 0.731 @41mm -> 0.731  [/SIZE]   straight taper overbore sorta CYL+

[SIZE=14pt] [/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]Beretta original to 1992 gun marked PB-SK-SP  [/SIZE]  50mm

[SIZE=14pt]0.734 -> 0.718 @ 15mm -> 0.737  [/SIZE]   I believe this to be the blunderbuss style

[SIZE=14pt] [/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]Perazzi Type 1 hand marked SK    [/SIZE]45mm  this would be mid 1970’s

[SIZE=14pt]0.740 -> 0.737 @ 10mm -> 0.741  [/SIZE]   maybe first-ish Perazzi blunderbuss type

[SIZE=14pt] [/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]Perazzi Type 1 hand marked SK   [/SIZE]45mm from late 70’s gun

[SIZE=14pt]0.740 -> 0.720 @ 20mm -> 0.740  [/SIZE]   evolving?

[SIZE=14pt] [/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]Perazzi Type 2 stamped SK   [/SIZE]45mm post ’82 sometime

[SIZE=14pt]0.740 -> 0.720 @ 20mm -> 0.740  [/SIZE]   they must have liked the change

[SIZE=14pt] [/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]Perazzi Type 2 stamped SK   [/SIZE]45mm  I think from ’86 gun

[SIZE=14pt]0.740 -> 0.721 @ 22mm -> 0.740  [/SIZE]   more of the same

[SIZE=14pt]Make what you will of any of the above.  [/SIZE]I have never patterned any of them and have no intention of doing so.

[SIZE=14pt]FWIW in the latest Perazzi Euro catalog I have from 2012 or 2014 the standard listed skeet gun is choked fixed CYL/CYL but I have no idea what conformation they might be.  [/SIZE]The older Mirage Skeet that I have has Tula style chokes and I believe that those persisted into the ‘90’s sometime at least in Europe as I also have a ’92 proofed shark gill ported Tula choke barrel that has no importer stamp.  The form of the Tula choke is markedly different between the two barrel sets but I’ve never measured them – really difficult to do.

[SIZE=14pt]That’s all I got[/SIZE]

As an unscientific rule of thumb I had an awakening a couple of weeks ago.

A friend and I were shooting a bouncing clay across the water, we noticed the apparent difference in pattern spread and put a few in the water without clays about 20-25 yards out.

The width of his pattern was almost twice mine and three times longer impact zone across the water.

He was on fibre, I was on plas wads. He shot some of my plas wads and he was still 60% wider pattern and twice pattern length of mine.

We were both on half choke, both optima, although he was HP.

His is a silver pigeon.

Mine is a DT10L

So not sure that all Beretta pattern tight as we had no other marque comparison but the DT10 certainly does pattern tighter and by a very apparent margin, compared to a Silver Pigeon.

I have been shooting sporting on half choke and going to give cylinder a go at the weekend . As I have a 50% miss rate but obliterate those I hit. Still new to the game, experimenting, learning, and loving it.