Turn back time
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Jeremy Baker
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Will Hewland
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Agree with Jem, I like the present system and find motivation in trying to improve my averages. (Not by looking for the fabled easy shoots). But I have always treated the results list as "open" in my mind. I always note how far down the total list I am as THE way to define how I did. Forget the score, forget how far off HG, forget whether you are overall in 6th or 35th; but look at what percentage down the scores list you are. In the top 10% is good for me now, top 5% is joyous. When I first started I chased being in top 50% and for ages top 25% was my goal. This is the realistic way to see how you did and is the basis of how I would run the classification system if I were Emperor.
Nicky T
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I'm all for change, so long as it's for the right reasons. Like Jem, I don't know what the "old" days were like. I suspect though that they'll be hard to re-create as actions spoke louder than words then and you didn't have the tirade of keyboard warriors to wade through to determine what's what.
From what I've seen, you appear to be doing a grand job of giving shooters targets that they want to shoot regardless of the format, prizes, entry fees etc. Keep that up and you won't go far wrong IMHO.
From what I've seen, you appear to be doing a grand job of giving shooters targets that they want to shoot regardless of the format, prizes, entry fees etc. Keep that up and you won't go far wrong IMHO.
ips
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Jem
Good question.
my issue with class system is that if you are let's say B class then you will subconsciously try to attain a B class score. If you are scratch you shoot to attain the highest possible score. I know for a fact that I have shot my best scores in scratch comp even winning Olympic medalists and high ranking GB shooters on occasions. I don't recall winning HG very often in class comp. Also another problem with class is that it doesn't matter what class your in you will need an A class score to win on the day which kind of makes a mockery of class system to my mind. I have said many times imo no class no category shoot to win pay further down the leader board.
Just my opinion.
Good question.
my issue with class system is that if you are let's say B class then you will subconsciously try to attain a B class score. If you are scratch you shoot to attain the highest possible score. I know for a fact that I have shot my best scores in scratch comp even winning Olympic medalists and high ranking GB shooters on occasions. I don't recall winning HG very often in class comp. Also another problem with class is that it doesn't matter what class your in you will need an A class score to win on the day which kind of makes a mockery of class system to my mind. I have said many times imo no class no category shoot to win pay further down the leader board.
Just my opinion.
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Jeremy Baker
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A very interesting point.
I always shoot for the best score but when I started was trying to attain a class score its bit different now and I am looking at the HG score and wanting to get close to that.
I guess the class system works in different ways for individuals.
As I improve I guess the class system looses its appeal and the overall win takes precedence.
It's how you attract the lower scorers to stay interested in entering.
ips
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Exactly my point Jem you sound like you have been able to move on mentally and look for HG I suspect many cannot and I believe this is why so many never achieve there true potential instead they stay B class or whatever for life and sit nice and comfy within the confines of a class score kidding themselves that there only shooting for fun and quite happy with occasional class win. If you set off to shoot 80 you almost certainly will if you sat off to hit all of them you probably won't but you will hit more than 80.
ips
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Ps
I believe class system does little good in fact imo it is harmful to ones mental approach. The best thing any trap shooter who wants to progress can do is to shoot the team selections in there chosen discipline this will make you shoot for HG with no thought at all about class as places and scores are worked out on count back from HG this is proper competitive shooting shoulder to shoulder with the other shooters on the same campaign.
I believe class system does little good in fact imo it is harmful to ones mental approach. The best thing any trap shooter who wants to progress can do is to shoot the team selections in there chosen discipline this will make you shoot for HG with no thought at all about class as places and scores are worked out on count back from HG this is proper competitive shooting shoulder to shoulder with the other shooters on the same campaign.
shootinguru
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Steve, you would be on a hiding to nothing! If you think that all the "numpties" and "no hopers" are going to enter that type of shoot where they pay the same entry fee as Ed Solomans, try and shoot herendous targets and win nothing! then walk away smiling as they watch ED and Co trying to decide what they will spend their £250.00 H.G. and other cash prizes on?
Its the road to going BANKRUPT!
Its the road to going BANKRUPT!
Will Hewland
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I suspect Guru is right.. The present system evolved for a reason. If it ain't a crowd pleaser it ain't a business.. Weston and Westfield were gruelling around 6 years ago and after softening up a bit their entries boomed I think..
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ips
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I think guru is correct as far as the bigger picture is concerned. Until a change in shooters mentality occurs things will and indeed must remain the same. Having said that is there room for two tiers of competitive shooting a sort of scratch premier league open to all as well as the current class derived league. ?
Will Hewland
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No IPS. At least with sporting, where a lot of work to set a course is needed, together with at least 12 staff to run the day. Each shoot needs a big entry to be viable and that means mass appeal. Shoots are made to appeal to high end of B and A class I generally find, with C and AAA finding it slightly not what they really want. Bit of a generalisation of course..
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The situation, as I see it, is a difficult one. Without entrants the competition is nothing. To get entrants there has to be some element of having some chance of taking something away no matter how small the prize even if it just covers your entry fee. There are many shooters who are of a competitive nature however they are just not good enough to win the HG or even be in the top 10 even... that is where the echelon is required because without these shooters there will be no money to fund the prizes. There is another way though the "clay shooting premier competition". This is where those who normally make off with the prize money enter into a competition where the entry fee is outrageously high! ... lets say between £500 and £2000. You may get some of the sure shots taking the gamble and you could charge an entry fee to watch the contest to further bolster the grounds take. Now you won't get any of the lower class shooter entries why would you? ...but they would have exactly the same chance as winning the HG in a £40 entry fee comp. So in effect let the pot hunters try to win their own money rather than some other unfortunates 
Rosso
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If you look at the scores in the club houses they more or less reflect the class cut off averages.
Example - AA in the 90's. C in the 60 - 70's. the others in between.
That shows a balanced shoot something for everyone.
Example - AA in the 90's. C in the 60 - 70's. the others in between.
That shows a balanced shoot something for everyone.
Ashley
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I started shooting 40 years ago aged 11 and did my first competitive shoot aged 16 as the junior in a five man team event, team captain was George white who at the time had shot for England and GBR several times. That gave me the bug so started to do all the straw balers I could get a lift to, occasionally there was a juniors class, but invariably there wasn't. How I longed to be able to shoot like the top boys in my area, people like, Carl bloxham, Roy guydrat , and Martin Myers, which in turn gave me the incentive to keep trying and improve. I have been in A class in sporting, DTL, and ABT. At present I'm in B in sporting, due to changing gun syndrome
( an illness I have suffered with for many years )
Some people call me a sandbagger, but believe me I try at every shoot I go to, yes it can be embarrassing shooting a higher than average score for the class.
For me it's not about money ( though it's nice to pick some up occasionally ) it's all about target quality and sense of atmosphere, shoots like white gold cup 2013 and the classic this year where there was a tremendous buzz about the ground, and it made you feel you were taking part in something special.
So, for me classes or not, if the targets are good and I can afford the entry I'll be there
( an illness I have suffered with for many years )
Some people call me a sandbagger, but believe me I try at every shoot I go to, yes it can be embarrassing shooting a higher than average score for the class.
For me it's not about money ( though it's nice to pick some up occasionally ) it's all about target quality and sense of atmosphere, shoots like white gold cup 2013 and the classic this year where there was a tremendous buzz about the ground, and it made you feel you were taking part in something special.
So, for me classes or not, if the targets are good and I can afford the entry I'll be there
ips
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Rosso
this is not the case in trap. An A class score general required to even win C thus is why I believe the system is flawed. One has to be capable of an A score otherwise you would never win class even with a top class score.
Will
I take your point
this is not the case in trap. An A class score general required to even win C thus is why I believe the system is flawed. One has to be capable of an A score otherwise you would never win class even with a top class score.
Will
I take your point
shootinguru
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After thinking about the good old days of sporting ! the majority of the shoots were 30 or 50 birders a BIG shoot was 60 birds and the only 100 birders were the English open which were 100.
The entry fee for a 50 birder was a fiver top prize money probably £50.00 then £30.00, £20.00, £10.00 with a few boxes of shells to the also rans? Also if you had 50-60 entries you were lucky? Do you really want to go back to this ?
The entry fee for a 50 birder was a fiver top prize money probably £50.00 then £30.00, £20.00, £10.00 with a few boxes of shells to the also rans? Also if you had 50-60 entries you were lucky? Do you really want to go back to this ?
If you think this system will improve your entries Steve then I wouldn't book your holidays until after you've tried it for a few shoots.
As far as paying out more to AA and A shooters is concerned, I haven't heard anything so daft in my life. So the B and C class shooters subsidise them? Whats that all about?
As far as paying out more to AA and A shooters is concerned, I haven't heard anything so daft in my life. So the B and C class shooters subsidise them? Whats that all about?
ips
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Seems to me that this has no real conclusion as every point seems valid in its own way. Very interesting to read everyone's comments though.
Maybe as Jem eluded to folk shoot for different reasons and have different expectations and probably unfair in some ways for those of us with a real competitive spirit to cast judgement. For me it's all about how far up the leader board I am with no interest in class or category but having done the club level class thing I am probably hardened to it by now.
Maybe as Jem eluded to folk shoot for different reasons and have different expectations and probably unfair in some ways for those of us with a real competitive spirit to cast judgement. For me it's all about how far up the leader board I am with no interest in class or category but having done the club level class thing I am probably hardened to it by now.
Will Hewland
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Yes, no easy answer. Certainly not everybody is in it to try and win stuff. Many are just content to be progressing regardless. The only time I got a bit peed off with it was about three years ago where I was not improving.
