Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
salop sniper

Cartridge Speed - How important ?

Recommended Posts

salop sniper

Just a quick question..... How important is cartridge speed to you ?

I appreciate what is advertised often isnt what you get, but do you look for a quicker cartridge where possible or arent you fussed ?

 

My current go to is GB Evo at 1420fps.

My best score to date was scored with a 1450fps cartridge.

Am just looking at trying other cartridges and notice Eley barely advertise a cartridge speed above 1375fps. Not that I would now buy Eley products. But Ive been looking at Express and the two cartridges of theirs I have my eye on are both listed as 1400fps but a £25 per 1000 price difference.

TIA

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
timps

Velocity difference between current commercially available cartridges (excluding subsonic) is  negligible when shooting clays. 

If you do the maths the clay has only moved inches between fastest to slowest velocity getting there. With a pattern spread of say 30” you really aren’t going to notice the clay is a few inches further from the centre.

All have enough impact energy to smash a clay at normal clay ground ranges. 

Even if the clay had moved feet as long as it’s consistent it doesn’t matter as you will learn the lead and sight picture for that velocity. 

The only thing that is really important is confidence in the cartridge. If you have confidence in it you will shoot at your best if not then it’s a self fulfilling prophecy and the doubt will cost you targets not the actual velocity difference. 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
FreeShot
57 minutes ago, timps said:

The only thing that is really important is confidence in the cartridge. If you have confidence in it you will shoot at your best if not then it’s a self fulfilling prophecy and the doubt will cost you targets not the actual velocity difference. 

Spot on 🖕

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
jwpzx9r

To a great extent I do not think that the speed of the shot is nearly as important as getting what you have on the target. I suppose you could have a scenario where you have used a high speed cartridge and chipped a target with a couple of shot where just maybe a slower speed may not have managed a chip but I think that would be rare. I reckon the actually speed is not the important statistic more so the consistency of the speed if speed is to be equated to cartridge quality and target breaking . If you think about it can a difference of 50fps in MV really equate to breaking more targets? Hard to believe unless the target was maybe at extreme range? I remember watch a vid of Digweed breaking targets  consistently moving back 5 m after each hit until some 100+ m he ran out of room ! I would say that was down to getting the target in the best part of the pattern rather than the speed of the cartridges being used.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
timps

And the exact opposite could happen, you could be too far in front with a fast cartridge but a slow one would chip it.

Just to give you rudimentary high school physics that doesn’t take into account loads of variables including very important ballistic ones and the fact everything is slowing down. However it does give an indication as both the 1450 fps and the 1375 fps at same shot size will be subjected to similar forces although the faster shot will be subject to a greater resistance so will initially slow slightly quicker.

For a 40 yard clay travelling at 40 mph.

time = distance/speed

1450fps flight time to 40 yards  = 120/1450 = 0.08276 seconds

1375fps flight time to 40 yards  = 120/1375 = 0.08727 seconds

Difference in time = 0.00451 seconds

 

Clay travelling at 40 mph = 59 fps rounded up

distance = speed x time

59 x 0.00451 =  0.26609 feet

Which means the clay has travelled 3.19 inches in the time it takes 1375 fps to get there compared to the 1450 fps.

3.19 inches at 40 yards is nothing to worry about.

Caveat : this is just high school physics I am not getting into air resistance and ballistics as stated above it is just as a guide.  

  • Like 3
  • Haha 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Will Hewland

I nearly said, as I usually miss in front, I need some 1100fps stuff. 

  • Haha 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
jwpzx9r
Posted (edited)
7 hours ago, timps said:

And the exact opposite could happen, you could be too far in front with a fast cartridge but a slow one would chip it.

Just to give you rudimentary high school physics that doesn’t take into account loads of variables including very important ballistic ones and the fact everything is slowing down. However it does give an indication as both the 1450 fps and the 1375 fps at same shot size will be subjected to similar forces although the faster shot will be subject to a greater resistance so will initially slow slightly quicker.

For a 40 yard clay travelling at 40 mph.

time = distance/speed

1450fps flight time to 40 yards  = 120/1450 = 0.08276 seconds

1375fps flight time to 40 yards  = 120/1375 = 0.08727 seconds

Difference in time = 0.00451 seconds

 

Clay travelling at 40 mph = 59 fps rounded up

distance = speed x time

59 x 0.00451 =  0.26609 feet

Which means the clay has travelled 3.19 inches in the time it takes 1375 fps to get there compared to the 1450 fps.

3.19 inches at 40 yards is nothing to worry about.

Caveat : this is just high school physics I am not getting into air resistance and ballistics as stated above it is just as a guide.  

:lol: Well of course the rules apply in both directions... not wanting to diminish  all your good arith tho . and it really does highlight the fact that being on target is the major influence . 

What I was , wrongly ? Highlighting was that the energy of a couple of slower pellets from a fast cartridge which was in front or even behind ideal may break the target whereas the pellets from a just in front slow cartridge might not just based on , again possibly wrongly, that the periphery of the pattern contain the slower moving shot and thus  carrying the less energy?

6 hours ago, Will Hewland said:

I nearly said, as I usually miss in front, I need some 1100fps stuff. 

 Will you can just as easily miss in front as you can behind with ANY cartridge ... it depends where you point your gun. The speed of the cartridge cannot make you shoot in the right place... a fast cartridge could help with a distant target though.

Edited by jwpzx9r

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
timps

No the point I was making was it’s how you shoot... in front  they are bad..... behind they are good but it’s genuinely inches on most targets  so on the grand scheme of things it makes no difference  you are not wrong  but if you don’t have confidence  is the biggest thing.

but the energy is a whole other subject if there is a clay that 1450 can break but 1375 can’t I’d love to see that clay  on a clay shoot. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
jwpzx9r

One thing I should have added in my reply is that I do not think any shooter uses a faster cartridge because of where they are shooting. Rather they use them because if they do hit the target the pellets that hit the target will, statistically at least, have a higher energy and are more likely to break the target. That in my opinion is the only "real world" advantage of using a high speed cartridge.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
GlawsterCodger
7 hours ago, Will Hewland said:

I nearly said, as I usually miss in front, I need some 1100fps stuff. 

Am opposite, and won’t matter how fast the load is going it won’t strike what’s already flown by

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
jwpzx9r
25 minutes ago, timps said:

but the energy is a whole other subject if there is a clay that 1450 can break but 1375 can’t I’d love to see that clay  on a clay shoot. 

I have seen plenty of targets hit and not broken! Logic tells you that a more distant target will need more energy to break it. I watched a vid of a big ESp comp where the final shoot off included a crosser that was so far out many shooters hit the targets but they did not break. My contention there would be that the target that were broken were broken because the target was hit by pellets from the center of the pattern, which have the most energy, the unbroken targets were hit by pellets from the periphery which have lower energy... or from cartridges with different MV's  . It was certainly interesting hearing competitors and commentators remarking on what was happening there.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
timps
Posted (edited)

But the center of the pattern has nothing to  do with velocity it’s placement and shot size that makes breaks. All to do with momentum.its about how many hit not the velocity. Seriously if you think a clay would break with 1450 but not 1375 I genuinely would  love to see it as I have broke plenty of clays with less than 1375  and never thought I needed more. Yes live game different but clays no. 

Edited by timps
  • Confused 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
jwpzx9r
Posted (edited)
9 hours ago, timps said:

But the center of the pattern has nothing to  do with velocity it’s placement and shot size that makes breaks. All to do with momentum.its about how many hit not the velocity. Seriously if you think a clay would break with 1450 but not 1375 I genuinely would  love to see it as I have broke plenty of clays with less than 1375  and never thought I needed more. Yes live game different but clays no. 

Regardless of what you are saying here... I think we are agreed that nobody would use a cartridge just because it reaches the target an infinitesimally time shorter than an other... but I think they would definitely use it if they thought it would impart greater energy onto a target at a greater distance . I think though you have to look at what you are saying because in theory a higher speed cartridge is going to impart more energy per pellet and will require less of them to hit the target to break it... a very good reason to use them .

The bit in bold and underlined makes no sense at all ! Momentum is the product of mass and velocity! Now in my world when you have two objects with the same mass but one object carrying a higher velocity than the other... one has greater momentum than the other. It therefore follows that you need you need less of them hitting and object to impart the same momentum... an thus break the target.

But energy is the preferred unit for ballistics.

 Momentum and kinetic energy are very different as you know but for the hell of it ... the difference in momentum between 1450 and 1350 fps is around 5% the difference in kinetic energy is around 10%

Edited by jwpzx9r

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Big G

So what’s the difference in pellet speed between a 1350 / 1450 cartridge at 50 yds?

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
jwpzx9r

A very good question ! Faster moving things do slow down quicker than slower moving things and I would certainly be interested to know the answer to your question   :lol:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
diver682
Posted (edited)

Not enough to even be remotely concerned, GD once said if you can tell the difference between a 1300 fps and a 1400 fps cartridge your a better shot than me!! 

Edited by diver682
  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
jwpzx9r
24 minutes ago, diver682 said:

Not enough to even be remotely concerned, GD once said if you can tell the difference between a 1300 fps and a 1400 fps cartridge your a better shot than me!! 

And yet we hear of shooters who maintain the can detect differences in recoil due to the chokes fitted !

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Will Hewland
19 minutes ago, jwpzx9r said:

And yet we hear of shooters who maintain the can detect differences in recoil due to the chokes fitted !

Ha ha. That’s an old topic. I’m still up for proving it for cash. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
timps
Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, jwpzx9r said:

 

The bit in bold and underlined makes no sense at all ! Momentum is the product of mass and velocity! Now in my world when you have two objects with the same mass but one object carrying a higher velocity than the other... one has greater momentum than the other. It therefore follows that you need you need less of them hitting and object to impart the same momentum... an thus break the target.

 

If you have ever walked a F.I.T.A.S.C course you might see an intact clay laying on the ground with several holes in it. Obviously, the holes means the shot that hit has enough energy to pass straight through the clay, therefore it matters not how much % excess energy they have it doesn’t make a bigger hole, however there hasn’t been enough of them hit to destroy the clay or see a visible piece break off.

Obviously, the faster shot has more energy but what does it do with this energy is the question.

Regarding the momentum bit I missed out the word ‘change’ as in change in momentum. Force is a measure of the change of momentum over time, in my defence I was in the pub so not well written I grant you. But the point I’m making is the clays ability to resist this moment to change its direction. At the ranges we shoot clays at the clay will not be able to resist either velocity so will break if enough shot hits.

As I said in my very first post if you have more confidence in them then that is a very good reason to use them but scientifically, they are not going to do any better at normal clay ranges no matter what the shooter tells themselves. Yes, there will be a range that might happen but you will not see that on a clay ground.

Edited by timps
  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
schmokinn

Within reason not at all.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Geordieboy
Posted (edited)

Not important in the slightest.

Pattern is very important. 

Shoot a slow 21gram shell and see how well it breaks nearly every target on an ESP layout and you'll know that the reduced shot count and slower speed delivers a very sweet pattern.

Edited by Geordieboy
More content
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Big G

For a longer range target would a faster cartridge or a larger shot size be more effective, using a 3/4 choked gun?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Geordieboy
10 hours ago, Big G said:

For a longer range target would a faster cartridge or a larger shot size be more effective, using a 3/4 choked gun?

Theres no substitute for patterning your gun with several cartridges. 

However in answer to your question, I've found that a good trap shell in 7 shot smashes everything past 70yds. 

Some notably hard hitting shells I've used, Fiocchi Fblack 7.5s, Fiocchi Golden trap, Lyavale World cup 6.5s, Clever Magic RVS3 7.25, CLEVER Pro Exra Evo 7.5's.......and my current favourite, ELEY TITANIUM STRIKES.

WHY?,....Because I patterned them and the pattern was tighter than the Superb, and it's very smooth to shoot.  Breaks at range confirm I'm holding a very tight pattern using 3/4 choke in both my Browning and Perazzi.

I Dont use full choke in either gun because the pattern plate tells me they are both cack! 

I hope that helps!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
schmokinn
On 3/7/2020 at 10:40 PM, Big G said:

For a longer range target would a faster cartridge or a larger shot size be more effective, using a 3/4 choked gun?

No and maybe,maybe depends on what you call distance and luck.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
FESkent
On 3/11/2020 at 11:25 AM, schmokinn said:

No and maybe,maybe depends on what you call distance and luck.

 

Small shot size used in clay shooting loses velocity very quickly so regardless of the muzzle velocity by the time the shot has traveled around 25 to 30 yards it will be travelling at the virtually the identical velocity.

however shot time down the barrel will be different which can make a difference to perceived lead, so find a cartridge you like price wise, recoil, availability and stick with it. 

 

  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Sign in to follow this  

×
×
  • Create New...