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chippy

Lewis system

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chippy

Anyone know what the Lewis system of classifications is. I shot a supersporting at high lodge today and that's what they are using. I only hit an 80 but got joint high in gold class so it seems ok to me😀

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Will Hewland
2 minutes ago, chippy said:

Anyone know what the Lewis system of classifications is. I shot a supersporting at high lodge today and that's what they are using. I only hit an 80 but got joint high in gold class so it seems ok to me😀

Think lottery ticket. Utter nonsense in terms of actual merit. It just divides the results list into equal bands and announces winner of each band. If you had shot one more clay you would have got nothing, as last in next “class” up. Idiotic bilge. 

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chippy
9 minutes ago, Will Hewland said:

Think lottery ticket. Utter nonsense in terms of actual merit. It just divides the results list into equal bands and announces winner of each band. If you had shot one more clay you would have got nothing, as last in next “class” up. Idiotic bilge. 

I think it's the future 😂

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matt s

It’s full name is the Lewis Carroll system.

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Wonko the Sane

Personally, I love the Lewis system.  It totally eliminates the "target management" class poachers just for starters.  EVERY classification system is arbitrarily formulated and they all ignore the simple fact that there are no two sporting courses alike and conditions change in a totally random manner.   Courses even change at the same grounds!!! Other classification systems are absolutely incapable of accommodating anything but some simple minded percentage-based supposed reflective of ability A-B-C-etc.  Talk about idiotic!!  Not to mention subject to manipulation.

Lewis system OTOH involves only the people at the actual event, has no constraints imposed by course difficulty or conditions, is subject to no manipulation, and reflects the abilities and performances at that single event untainted by any other considerations.

The Lewis is IMO second only to no classes whatsoever and would be about even with a win-based points system of classification.

And, Mr. Hewland, a participant subject to ANY classification system can be one target in or out of the money and the only solution to that is no classes at all.  

Edited by Wonko the Sane
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Hamster
28 minutes ago, Wonko the Sane said:

Personally, I love the Lewis system.  It totally eliminates the "target management" class poachers just for starters.  EVERY classification system is arbitrarily formulated and they all ignore the simple fact that there are no two sporting courses alike and conditions change in a totally random manner.   Courses even change at the same grounds!!! Other classification systems are absolutely incapable of accommodating anything but some simple minded percentage-based supposed reflective of ability A-B-C-etc.  Talk about idiotic!!  Not to mention subject to manipulation.

Lewis system OTOH involves only the people at the actual event, has no constraints imposed by course difficulty or conditions, is subject to no manipulation, and reflects the abilities and performances at that single event untainted by any other considerations.

The Lewis is IMO second only to no classes whatsoever and would be about even with a win-based points system of classification.

And, Mr. Hewland, a participant subject to ANY classification system can be one target in or out of the money and the only solution to that is no classes at all.  

There's barely any real manipulation going on, certainly none that will last more than 6 months and even then you would pay more in entering and supposedly manipulating 😏  your scores than you would pick up in winnings ! Examples of X wining big in a major are :

1) extremely rare

2) subject to X actually having to hammer in a winning score in the first place (not at all a given when there may be two dozen other shooters who happen to shoot "organically" well). 

You most definitely can be one target out and drop out of the prizes but not one target in and lose. 

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westley

I am so glad that I no longer take my clay shooting seriously  !

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ips
25 minutes ago, westley said:

I am so glad that I no longer take my clay shooting seriously  !

Me too

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westley
2 hours ago, ips said:

Me too

I do NOT think that both you and I together could beat that X fella  !    😉

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Westward
On 11/25/2018 at 9:47 PM, matt s said:

It’s full name is the Lewis Carroll system.

So it only works in Wonderland then? 🐰

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ehb102

It's a marvellous thing that is simply about the scores on the day. I don't know why people have such a problem with it when they are simultaneously moaning about sandbagging AND people going birds only. Does away with the status of earned letter classes and instead classes you against people of a similar ability on the day itself. But what do I know? I never win anything 🙂

 

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Wonko the Sane
22 hours ago, Hamster said:

You most definitely can be one target out and drop out of the prizes but not one target in and lose. 

Hmmmm - I'm sure you actually know what I meant

1 hour ago, ehb102 said:

But what do I know? I never win anything 🙂

Neither do far the majority of shooters. Whether it is a consequence of the class system or simple ineptitude is difficult to say.  How often do, say, D Class shooters win D Class shooting D Class scores?  I'd be betting that the answer is NEVER.  So what is the purpose of having a D Class?

Edited by Wonko the Sane

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Sian

It is all rubbish anyway.  I am in C class for sportrap. A while back I was in B, did some dodgy weather and nighttime ones and hey presto went down to C.  This time round still in C for cut off - still dodgy weather ., and now I seem to have an average  of 78 point something so its all tosh.  As for scores on the day, you can really shoot well because you like the targets, are happy, whatever it might be and then shoot like a blind man the next shoot which I do frequently.  There are a lot of shooters including myself who teeter on a class and occasionally two above their class.   There will never be a proper average for anyone as we do not all shoot the same amount, the same weather, the same grounds at the same time.  Going back into my hole now.

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Hamster
21 minutes ago, Wonko the Sane said:

Hmmmm - I'm sure you actually know what I meant

Neither do far the majority of shooters. Whether it is a consequence of the class system or simple ineptitude is difficult to say.  How often do, say, D Class shooters win D Class shooting D Class scores?  I'd be betting that the answer is NEVER.  So what is the purpose of having a D Class?

Surely that's obvious, so we reward improvement and not mediocrity. If the Lewis system rewards everyone equally (through luck) then it's not measuring nor rewarding excellence. 

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Will Hewland

Exactly Hamid, the point of having a D class is to rise out of it! So while you are showing that you have improved, you will of course be shooting scores that exceed the grading boundary point of the class. Durr.. Then they upgrade you to C class or whatever. Apart from anything else it gives meaning to shooting. Otherwise it’s just noise pollution and damaging ashtrays. 

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PP

I thought clay shooting was supposed to be fun?  Shoot whatever comps (or not) that made you happy and don’t give a stuff about anyone else..

 There will always be someone better than you by various measures that they chose to use, there will also be people who cheat to make themselves feel better, just don’t let them Make you feel worse.

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Wonko the Sane
On 11/27/2018 at 8:52 AM, Will Hewland said:

Exactly Hamid, the point of having a D class is to rise out of it! So while you are showing that you have improved, you will of course be shooting scores that exceed the grading boundary point of the class. Durr.. Then they upgrade you to C class or whatever. Apart from anything else it gives meaning to shooting. Otherwise it’s just noise pollution and damaging ashtrays. 

 

On 11/27/2018 at 8:41 AM, Hamster said:

Surely that's obvious, so we reward improvement and not mediocrity. If the Lewis system rewards everyone equally (through luck) then it's not measuring nor rewarding excellence. 

Both spurious statements that would take more time to refute than worth

If one shoots an out of class score then that score should be judged by the appropriate class, and the shooter promoted to reward him/her for the accomplishment.  The highest score shot within the class boundary should win that class.  THAT is the intent of classes - Equity among the similarly ranked shooters and placement according to skill.  Lower class shooters posting higher class scores and receiving the lower class award is a subversion of the intent of classification system.  Of course that is in practise totally ignored.

that is why Lewis is superior because the SCORE sets the class assignment with nothing else required.  

Edited by Wonko the Sane

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Will Hewland
51 minutes ago, Wonko the Sane said:

 

Both spurious statements that would take more time to refute than worth

If one shoots an out of class score then that score should be judged by the appropriate class, and the shooter promoted to reward him/her for the accomplishment.  The highest score shot within the class boundary should win that class.  THAT is the intent of classes - Equity among the similarly ranked shooters and placement according to skill.  Lower class shooters posting higher class scores and receiving the lower class award is a subversion of the intent of classification system.  Of course that is in practise totally ignored.

that is why Lewis is superior because the SCORE sets the class assignment with nothing else required.  

Talk about missing the point! The class system means you are placed among people of your broad ability at the START of the day. Previous performance is the only measure we have for classifying people. Take a low class shooter who is just starting to progress. If you FINISH the day well, it’s hardly logical to then revoke your classification! (Effectively what Lewis does). That’s just a ridiculous carrot on a stick, making winning out of reach if you stupidly have any success on the day, as it is penalised by your being promoted upwards to obscurity.

Equally, let’s say a top shooter turns up and shoots the worst they have for years. Chances are they will win “B” class or whatever daft name the Lewis system has for its lower band. This deprives a true beginner shooter of a win. It’s all nonsense. 

Winning Lewis system in class requires the same level of dedication and talent as winning at Russian roulette. I must exit this Alice in Wonderland debate now..

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Wonko the Sane

me too

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ips

All class system is bollox, everyone shoots the best they can on the day, the winner wins, pay as far down the leader board as you can .... Job done

PS

Do away with vet and lady class as well as they shoot as well if not better than blokes

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LarsJ
On 11/28/2018 at 10:37 PM, Will Hewland said:

Equally, let’s say a top shooter turns up and shoots the worst they have for years. Chances are they will win “B” class or whatever daft name the Lewis system has for its lower band. This deprives a true beginner shooter of a win. It’s all nonsense. 

Excactly! As a beginner it's extremely frustrating to enter competition where there will be payouts to different classes, and then see people from the top 12 on the national rankings win the lower classes. We have a national ranking, and my opinion is that the top 12 can't win anything in lower classes. I mean if a premier league team have a sh*te day on the pitch, they don't get to go down and get some point from the lower leagues.

This is the reason I don't really consider the Grand Prix we shoot in OT as the buy in is 100€. And I know I'll never be able to win the B or C as long as the good shooters can have a bad series in the first 3and then end up and win the B class easy. Personally I'd like to compete amongst eqauls. And my goal  is still to be able to compete in A class. But as long as I'm a B/C shooter I'd like to compete against my level. 

 

14 hours ago, ips said:

Do away with vet and lady class as well as they shoot as well if not better than blokes

Yes I agree with that. (we actually don't use the classes apart from national championship). Vets and old boys are normally higher scoring than senior. My suggestion for class would be based on scores, no gender or age difference. And juniors should be called so until the turn 18,then they would be seniors, not 21. Super vets is OK,  reaction time and eye sights are becoming so slow/bad that experience can't outweigh it any more. (still talking OT here). 

 

Lars

Edited by LarsJ
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ips
6 hours ago, LarsJ said:

Excactly! As a beginner it's extremely frustrating to enter competition where there will be payouts to different classes, and then see people from the top 12 on the national rankings win the lower classes. We have a national ranking, and my opinion is that the top 12 can't win anything in lower classes. I mean if a premier league team have a sh*te day on the pitch, they don't get to go down and get some point from the lower leagues.

This is the reason I don't really consider the Grand Prix we shoot in OT as the buy in is 100€. And I know I'll never be able to win the B or C as long as the good shooters can have a bad series in the first 3and then end up and win the B class easy. Personally I'd like to compete amongst eqauls. And my goal  is still to be able to compete in A class. But as long as I'm a B/C shooter I'd like to compete against my level. 

 

Yes I agree with that. (we actually don't use the classes apart from national championship). Vets and old boys are normally higher scoring than senior. My suggestion for class would be based on scores, no gender or age difference. And juniors should be called so until the turn 18,then they would be seniors, not 21. Super vets is OK,  reaction time and eye sights are becoming so slow/bad that experience can't outweigh it any more. (still talking OT here). 

 

Lars

Agree with the super vet sentiment, that makes perfect sense as its justifiable 👍

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schmokinn
23 hours ago, ips said:

Agree with the super vet sentiment, that makes perfect sense as its justifiable 👍

Only because you are knocking on the door!! :biggrin:

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ips
28 minutes ago, schmokinn said:

Only because you are knocking on the door!! :biggrin:

Kettle, pot 😀

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DavidJ
On 11/28/2018 at 8:50 PM, Wonko the Sane said:

 

Both spurious statements that would take more time to refute than worth

If one shoots an out of class score then that score should be judged by the appropriate class, and the shooter promoted to reward him/her for the accomplishment.  The highest score shot within the class boundary should win that class.  THAT is the intent of classes - Equity among the similarly ranked shooters and placement according to skill.  Lower class shooters posting higher class scores and receiving the lower class award is a subversion of the intent of classification system.  Of course that is in practise totally ignored.

that is why Lewis is superior because the SCORE sets the class assignment with nothing else required.  

I shoot sporting at B class, I'm trying to shoot AAA every time I go out. I don't turn up to a shoot trying to shoot the B class cut off point.

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