Whats the difference between

[victorismyhero]

Oh dear....I only asked :fie:  think I'l shut up and keep quiet.

No I wont...........I'll stick my oar in

Nic...I havnt been "brought up in shooting correctly" and I have to admit I take umbridge at the implied snobbery in that statement as I HAVE been "brought up to respect the countyside"....Last time i did any "serious" shooting was in the 60's when my mate of 14 had a licence and could supervise me (also 14) with his "spare" gun ( a beautiful old lee enfield .303 bored out to .410 and chambered for 3" magnums...bolt fed too...8 rounds in the mag and one "up the spout" :spiteful:  ) and this will be my first SGC (when it arrives)  HOWEVER....I would NEVER use plaswads whilst shooting over agricultural land or indeed ANY land where animals may graze...even wood land with deer....to me leaving the place littered with plaswads is the same mentality as throwing your empty coke bottles down any old where or chucking your sarnie wrappers about....OK fiber are a smidge dearer and "may" not perform as well in modern back bored guns (dunno....<<<shrugs>>>&gt but at least they are degradeable.  dunno yet about clay grounds....I suppose if they allow plaswads then they know what they are doing?????  and presumably dont mind a few 1000 plaswads amongst the piles of black and fluorescent orange clay fragments.

I suppose that, unless one is after the 10 mile high bird, the pellet hardness is a matter of some conjecture....I dare say that the pigeon or even pheassy at 25-40 yards doesnt really know the difference between 3% and 7 % antimony. Just how much armour DOES feathering provide and how does this vary amongst species I wonder?  and EXACTLY how much harder is one pellet composition as compared to another...If pellet hardness were a critical factor, presumably steel would be considered superior , which of course, as we all know is not the case, because DENSITY is more important.

I suppose that...given that ANY cartridge is going to outperform ME, at least for a while...I'll buy a reasonably priced game shell for live shooting and the cheapest I can find to sling at clays whilst I "get my eye in", on the principle that, at least to start with, I'll be killing (or at least trying to kill) a LOT more clays than furry/feathery things.

 

[Hamster]

and EXACTLY how much harder is one pellet composition as compared to another...If pellet hardness were a critical factor, presumably steel would be considered superior , which of course, as we all know is not the case, because DENSITY is more important.

This is a very valid point, you need mechanical equipment to measure hardness in a meaningful way and with all the variables involved the difference between 2-6% antimony is going to be impossible to evaluate on live game. Don't forget also that hardness is directly proportional to size of pellets too introducing yet another variable ! 

The reason for steel lagging behind lead is that it loses energy faster.

 

[Darkside]

High antimony lead 5%+ ect is less dence and therefore lighter than 3% antimony lead. Some of the very expensive non toxic wildfowling shells I've try'ed have pellets that are harder and heivier than lead...some of them, I.M.H.O. Have more knock down energy at at extended ranges than lead loads have. I would argue that it's not the softer pellets deforming, (they don't anyway, not mushrooming like a rifle bullet) that gives 3% antimony loads a perceived edge at distance, but the small amount of extra retained energy at distance through being heivier/dencer. Don't think it makes much difference in small shot, 71/2, 8's ect, but once you get game sizes of 5's, 4's or even larger for wildfowl, then the mass x dencity = retained energy really kicks in...

 

[** Pending Removal **]

Look boys ......there is a right way to shoot game and a wrong way to shoot game....this and etiquette is a very big subject....that is normally taught within shooting families.....over many many years.

I am sorry if you do not like this fact....it is history and cannot be wiped out.

You all enjoy discussing in your own way as you see fit. Please don't include me as I am off now. I only discuss game shooting topics with game shots....it is always fatal discussing these topics with people who have not been brought up with it and who just pay to shoot the odd day.

My mistake I thought this was a serious question, but I see that as usual....those who do a lot of it and have the experience...are yet again insulted and hounded off a thread.

Hope you all have a nice day.

Bring the car around Gilbert....I am orf shooting....and step to it...I am late....!

 

[Hamster]

Well yeah I suppose ballistics must alter according to what family you're born into !  :mosking:  The thread incidentally is about the difference between game and clay loads, not the etiquette of fibre V plastic in a game shoot. Unfortunately for some I'm only interested in real facts rather than what's acquired via hand me down quips. Winksinaghastlybutdelightedmanner. :wink:

 

[** Pending Removal **]

I know it is a long thread now..... but if you care to read back you will see that for my part I did answer it on post 19 and 25....before it then morphed off to other things (as posts tend to do) about fibre v plastic and 'that' is where correct etiquette came in.

God you would start a problem in an empty house you would.

No time to answer more....just off to shoot another round.

 

[Hamster]

Just re-read post 19, doesn't in any shape or form answer anything, just tells us if we can't afford the price we should get out the kitchen, also of course tells us what YOU like.

Post 25 starts off in an odd way as usual but saves the day by a little (wrong) quip garnered along the journey.

 

[Skeet UK]

Just for fun, crunched some numbers for you all to consider.

This is for #5 Shot at 3.05mm diameter at 690fps (approximate velocity at 40m). Antimony is roughly half as dense as lead.

Pure Lead Shot               0.168466g  (2.59982768 grains)  2.76ft/lbs of energy

5% Antimony Shot           0.165001    (2.54635456 grains)  2.71ft/lbs of energy

This 100% lead pellet has 1.8116% more energy than the harder Antimony pellet.

The difference between a 3 and 5% Antimony pellet would be minimal

Would this make much difference to kills?  Obviously, if it were 50 pellets striking, all with a touch more energy, the difference might be obvious...but how many shot would strike the bird...?

Perhaps also consider that the harder shot, being less deformed, has a greater chance of achieving the stated velocity and also of striking the bird (by being within the "inner area" shot cloud).

no5 shot at 3.05mm 2.6grains 
14.8559 mm/3 Volume
0.0148559cm/3
0.168465906 g of pure lead per  #5 shot 
0.0992968356 g of pure antimony per #5 shot
 5% of antimony 0.00496484178
95% of lead 0.1600426107

 

[Hamster]

I think Darkside is along the right lines but the sheer number of variables make passing judgement on quality or manner of kills no more than personal belief and experience at best. There are one or two facts though, one being that small shot retrieved from small game doesn't deform; yes you will find the odd one that looks damaged because it has hit bone but you'll find such pellets in unfired shells if you look  in other words it is not proof it's what led to the birds demise.

What would you prefer, a pellet rapidly deforming somewhat larger than it's own original shape (like a coin) and getting lodged half way inside the breast meat or one that punches through the breast bone and into the vital organs ?

Just to bring things back on track regarding the original question, I would personally shoot so called clay loads at game save for swapping out the small shot for appropriately larger ones - the only tangible difference is cost in my view.

 

[Skeet UK]

A clay cartridge and a game cartridge? apart from the obvious that clay stuff is 71/2 shot size??

and why the large price differential?

How about we let the Hamster answer this?

(Whilst considering Gamebore EVO Clay cartridges

In fact I would go as far as to say that if Gamebore were to simply load a 6.5 or 7 shot version of same with a suitably posh Spanish name, it could be marketed as a partridge shell for lighter game guns, then they could charge £245 for it, not that I for one minute think this kind of thing goes on you understand.

 

[** Pending Removal **]

Just re-read post 19, doesn't in any shape or form answer anything, just tells us if we can't afford the price we should get out the kitchen, also of course tells us what YOU like.

Post 25 starts off in an odd way as usual but saves the day by a little (wrong) quip garnered along the journey.

Ah hahahahahaha . I answered the way i wanted to. I know that it is a hard concept for you to understand.

Ooooh i do wish you would hit the ignore button. God i have prayed for it. I do not know why you are always commenting on things i say. 

It is called free opinion.....live with it. You do not have to even read it.

God i wish you did not read it....then i would not have to answer...saying that i really do not give a powder puff about anything you write.

And .....

Please peeps i am no longer going to reply to anyone else on pm...I hate pm's.........I know you don't want to be attacked but be brave and talk on the main boards....if you have something to say please say it...do not let some of the posters put you off. As for those who ask about Fiocchi then please will you use my email address instead of the PM's. Many thanks.

Ooops got to go...next round starting.

Laters......... probably much much later.

(and Pete if you are still watching.....thanks for the email and we miss your input.)

 

[SoR]

Think I just died. How boring!

Sent from my GT-I9305 using Tapatalk 2

 

[no.1topdog]

Expanding this subject a bit then, have we all been fed "Urban Myth" type information over the years, probably by Marketing Departments of cartridge manufacturers? Remember this all started when every town's ironmonger and gunsmith loaded their own and probably "bigged up" their own brand by professing its "magic" properties.

Each of us has our own views which have proved to be very different for vastly different reasons. Have we all been suckered into the hype? Let's face it, the only ones gaining in reality by us having to have the appropriate cartridge are the manufacturers who must be laughing all the way to the banks?

I don't know, I really don't know!  :biggrin:

 

[chippy]

Go to degla the sheep walk around the trap house and the ref throws a stone to shift it. Its all very rural

Spennymore sheep field 20 yds in front of trap shot falls on em, mid Wales similar to above.

I think the welsh prefer their sheep a bit on the deaf side

 

[victorismyhero]

Clearly there are 3 opinions here

1) yes there is a difference, but how much difference it actually makes is a matter of some conjecture

2) yes there is a difference, but its a load of old cobblers, and is down to hype

3) Obviously I'm a pleb and havnt got the "breeding" to understand how or why these differences exist since its a matter of etiquette rather than physics.

Dare I ever, having such a lowly status, ask other questions that may well beset the newbie in this sport?

 

[** Pending Removal **]

Clearly there are 3 opinions here

1) yes there is a difference, but how much difference it actually makes is a matter of some conjecture

2) yes there is a difference, but its a load of old cobblers, and is down to hype

3) Obviously I'm a pleb and havnt got the "breeding" to understand how or why these differences exist since its a matter of etiquette rather than physics.

Dare I ever, having such a lowly status, ask other questions that may well beset the newbie in this sport?

You got No3 wrong you silly boy Pike...did you not do your A levels :wink:

It is not about breeding.....it is about being brought up in game shooting and being taught how to do things.

Just like a farmer is brought up in farming and does not make the mistake of attaching the auto milker to the bulls dick whist wondering where the rest of the tetties are...

Cor......chip on shoulder or what....

I am orf....to play billiards.....I just cannot stand all this negativity whilst sipping my pink gin....it really spoils the flavour.

(Ninja mode p s. If the Hampster likes your post it should give you a clue....he only like the nastier ones. I would not have him on my estate....even if he is an expert on vermin or 15 yds pigeons...ah ho ho ho......... hurrah..Gilbert is here with the ice and juniper....bliss......what ho chaps)

 

[Hawkeye]

haaaaahahahahahaaaaaaaaahahahahahahahhahahahh

 

[victorismyhero]

It is not about breeding.....it is about being brought up in game shooting and being taught how to do things.....

erm....yer, right, ok... if you say so....Personally. I'd rather do things with a solid understanding of the reasons why, than just follow "etiquette" blindly.

As I said ...wouldnt use plaswads "in the field" because they are non degradeable plastic rubbish, worse even than the chippy's styrene trays and empty coke bottles that get strewn around everywhere...reason...because I know first hand what damage this garbage can do to livestock.....and I have more respect for the farming folk than to do that.....I dont need 20 centuries of familial shooting tradition to not do it...simply because "its not polite Sydney".

Lets face it, shooting etiquette as a guide on how to behave is a bit uhmmmm....yesterday...I mean when one finds instructions that state HOW one must have ones breeks INSIDE the tops of ones socks, with the garter round above the breeks buckle with the sock folded down with just the gater tab showing.....it all seems......pretentious??  Very smart I would agree and probably very comfortable and theres the sensible solid reason .....but?...one gets "judged" on these things??????

Then of course there are the things one does for SAFETY...well thats not etiquette, however much you dress it up....one doesnt swing through the line because its not polite....You dont do it because its not bloody safe, and if you do do it, theres a high chance some poor old sod will be meeting his maker...THATS why...NOT because its " a bit rude"...and so on and so forth

So a bit less pretentious snootyness and a bit more practical solid reason to reasonable questions might result in less acrid replies.

 

[Macc Ladd]

That's so we can creep up on them chippy!!! Like I said b4 we fxxk them you eat them

 

[Les53]

Sorry.......I'm just a trap shooter......I'm outta here!!! Where's my coat? Oh there it is......pissed again..........