The future of ABT

[jwpzx9r]

I know you know that Ian I have some text missing there though don't know why. It should also have said "it is the trap discipline that the worlds top trap shooters aspire to"... by the way I don't think MD ,AA,DK et al. are whingers

 

[PhilR]

I do not shoot ABT Phil only UT and OT. There is another trap discipline that is shot at small clubs here and that is Fosse American it is similar in concept to ABT. I think the angles are the same but is very different in that the targets all have the same trajectory. The speed of the targets is similar to a fast UT target but is of course constant. You shoot a lot in France you will know that UT is the top trap followed by OT. Clubs here are owned by the members so although there are a few with OT such a set up is expensive and requires constant maintenance of 15 traps and a bit more space. The clubs I shoot at in summer and winter have UT and OT.

Off at a slight tangent. At the weekend I was talking with two French shooters who, like yourself, shoot in international events. They are scathing of the grounds that are used for such events in France! For example the UT Euros at Ychoux they think that the ground whilst functional is not acceptable in other respects, similarly with the ground being used for the DTL comp at Cestas. Both said that France had to take a lead from the likes of Spain and Italy ( Granada and lonato ?) where the grounds used for big events are super according to both. We did agree though that at club level shooters in France are getting a good deal for what they pay the average for a round of UT or OT is €3.50 which is a good bit less than £3. Be good to get your take on that because you will have no doubt shot these grounds before.

I've shot at Ychoux several times in fact I was the FITASC Technical Commission member who approved the ground in 2007 at the French national championships for FITASC to use it for the 2008 World Championships.  I've also shot UT at Lazenay, Valence, Poussan, Megeve, Charmentray, Arras, Cabannes, Villeneuve sur Lot, Antibes, Nancy, Chatelaillon sur Page and Corsica although they don't regard themselves as French.

There were issues with Ychoux with regard to toilet facilities, additional temporary facilities should have been supplied, but weren't and there were discussions between FFBT and FITASC about it.  The targets and ranges are first class though, plenty of hotel accommodation nearby being a coastal shooting ground so ideal for families and it's popular with Brit shooters for that reason.  The ground is now under new ownership the original owner Georges Cherici told me.

In Europe the Italian shooting ranges are by far the best.  Spanish and Portuguese are also very good and the French trail them (mainly because of the clubhouse facilities number of toilets etc, plenty of times the toilets are out of order on the first day of official practice because of the large number of people using them), with UK grounds lagging even further behind.  The nearest to a continental ground would've been Southern Counties but of course that's now closed.

 

[ips]

Wouldn't be too sure about that John

 

[balltrap]

Beverley aka EYCC has been designed to look old and the toilets can accommodate a coach party ! :biggrin:   i think there are 15 traps in there, plus the tin and felt roof is designed to be eco friendly.  

 

[jwpzx9r]

You have certainly done the rounds in France Phil! I believe Villeneuve sur Lot is now closed ? You have more or less confirmed what they had to say about the facilities though. I have never shot at a ground out with France because I have only really just started so although I cannot comment on what I would find at a shooting ground in the UK I think the French club system of the members running the show is to be commended. It seems to deliver shooting at very affordable prices because there is no drive for profit. Shooting in France is a community driven thing the local fete is usually supported by a club shooting competition good for the village and good for the club.

 

[balltrap]

If carlsburg did shooting grounds they would probably copy EYCC  :maninlove:

 

[Dog Tyred]

If carlsburg did shooting grounds they would probably copy EYCC :maninlove:

If that were true they would give it the club house from Jebel Ali Shooting Club

DT

 

[balltrap]

That would look out of place in Humberside   :logik:

 

[PhilR]

Bit like the layout covers at NCSC. Perfect to shade the users from the desert sun but useless at providing any protection from the vagaries of English weather.

 

[balltrap]

Bit like the layout covers at NCSC. Perfect to shade the users from the desert sun but useless at providing any protection from the vagaries of English weather.

Yep last time i shot there i got wet  :crazy:

I believe they cost £70,000 per layout 

 

[RobertBeard]

I didn't realise that the mushrooms were that magic?

 

[Wonko the Sane]

Am i right in saying ABT was first started in France when they shot balls of glass filled with feathers !

and was never started as a poor mans OT

FWIW a ref I have says that the UIT and ISU recognized Automatic Trap in 1962.  In what I read the efforts of Winchester in developing a machine was instrumental in making that happen.  And  it was intended to be a substitute, not stepping stone, to OT which simply did not have a great deal of international support post-WW2 due to the cost of the OT installation (and the unfortunate situation where the pigeon shooters were consistently kicking clay target shooters' asses).  And of course it never caught on in the US, prolly 'cause it's toooooooooooo hard!

And as was mentioned earlier and has been discussed here several times, it would be a TabA/SlotB  effort in the 21st Century to make a computer controlled ABT with schemes.  I'm not waiting under water for that to happen, and certainly not here in the States where the Holy Average rules and targets can't be too soft.

OK - rant off

 

[ips]

I believe the US version of abt is refered to as wobble trap. Charlie out of curiosity what speed and angles is your version ?

 

[sidney]

On the subject of fairness (not that it particularly bothers me to be honest) the technology to make ABT set schemes has been available for ages,  If Canterbury traps can do this : http://www.canterburytrap.co.nz  a computer controlled ABT trap should be child's play.

 

[paul b]

Not enough people using whats already there.I have two ot layouts near me and they are both pretty much redundant because the ground owners have customers that bring in much more money than the few trap shots that may or may not turn up,and I don't blame them one bit,why put in the effort if its not going to be rewarded?I got one to get the ABT going again for me to get some practice on but im still trying to persuade him to open up the ot.Use em or lose em is what your all going to have to do even if the back ground may not suit or the sky is the wrong shade of blue or any of the other silly reasons for not going.

 

[jwpzx9r]

I think you have hit the nail on the head . It is the same down here even though the clubs are not run for profit and there are quite a few clubs with OT facilities because UT is the most popular competition event nearly all the clubs shoot it. Take our club it has UT and OT but 90% of the time the OT setup is used for UT and we only have one comp for OT and that is a 50 OT/50 UT day. There are, as far as I know, no comps in this region for  OT . It is always going to take more time to setup the OT as well so that is also a factor to take into account. Down here that is up to one of the members to do and most cannot be bothered.

 

[PhilR]

Peep inside the majority of OT trenches in France and you'll find just traps 6,7,8 9 and 10 in position for UT.  If there's an OT comp they'll rob the UT layouts to put the traps back into the OT trench.

At Ychoux they have eight UT layouts, no OT at all.  When I went there in 2007 to shoot the French national championships there were over 720 shooters and a waiting list, it was 200 targets shot over four days. I doubt in the UK if there's 720 UT, OT and ABT shooters combined.  Makes our selection shoots or British grand prix with around 100 entries pretty dismal.  

 

[ips]

I say again the best way to attract people to abt is don't make them ref. I have heard time and time again from many dtl and indeed past abt shooters that it's the primary reason for not shooting it.

 

[Wonko the Sane]

I believe the US version of abt is refered to as wobble trap. Charlie out of curiosity what speed and angles is your version ?

The sad truth is that there is no set of rules that anyone lives by.  Wobble shoots are very few and are AFAIK only club events and the format is on the ad hoc order.  Generally it is shot from the 21yd line and cranked up to whatever feels happy at the moment.  The only existing for real ABT that I know of is in Phoenix and I've not seen it but reliable informants say it is pure.  There was one at Miramar in San Diego (and an OT) but that was on US Navy property and a new base commander shut it down a few yrs ago.  MFer!

Weather aside, youse guys don't know how good ya got it

JMO of course but the majority of US shooters are pussies when it comes to difficult games.  They'd rather shoot 100x100 on balloons than anything less on whatever.

 

[V8 90]

I say again the best way to attract people to abt is don't make them ref. I have heard time and time again from many dtl and indeed past abt shooters that it's the primary reason for not shooting it.

I also know a few who would have a go if they didn't have to Ref - I must admit I was daunted at the task when I first tried ABT but actually enjoyed it & learnt a lot from watching the experienced guys shoot. I'm having a practice on Thursday following an operation - if all goes well I'll be at Beverly for the Lincs County/Selection shoot on Sunday