Referee right or wrong?

[Guest]

So this weekend I shot at a ESP shooting ground with a left to right crossing rabbit and a going away. 

First pair I centre painterned the both, I saw it, everyone behind me saw it, but as the referee was sat to my right he called the rabbit as a lost as it was "out of view from the referee". The ref gave no parameters on where the bird had to be killed so I shot the bird within the view that I saw from within the stand.

Whos in the right? I can't see what the referee sees and if he gives me no restrictions I'll shoot it as I see fit. 

 

[evoracer]

if the target is active with no restrictions defined then the ref has to be wrong.

 

[Alan Rowley]

The ref should have positioned himself so he can see the targets (both of them) 

 

[Hamster]

Rabbits (in fact any clay) with restricted windows should be clearly sign posted at the stand and it's the refs duty to ensure you are aware. I've seen straw bales used to create obstacles and force the shooter into taking rabbits too late or early as the case may be, nothing wrong with that particularly where safety reasons are the incentive but the only excuse for a ref to fail to inform you is if you had stood and watched several people shoot. 

 

[ips]

I don't know sporting but Allan has to be right.

 

[Guest]

Why didn't you take you concerns to the jury? As it was not a kill/loss issue and more the ref being in the wrong position. I bet others suffered as well!

 

[Ian Lawrence]

The Referee is always right, and their decision will stand unless overturned by the Jury.

You would have been a fool to have shot the following pairs in the same place, leading to the same result. But you might have suggested to the Ref that their position became unsighted at some stage.

The Referee cannot possibly be expected to see what you see unless you are happy for them to sit on your shoulders.

However, it was an oversight for the Referee to not be able to see the full travel of each target. Lack of experience, lack of committment and disrespect to the shooter's needs I feel.

 

[Sian]

Why didn't you take you concerns to the jury? As it was not a kill/loss issue and more the ref being in the wrong position. I bet others suffered as well!

​Do we even have a jury at a normal/registered ESP shoot?  I have never seen evidence of one as usually (as with the bigger competitions) they display a note of who is on the jury.

 

[Julesy]

Every registered shoot regardless of discipline, or numbers shooting it, should have a jury Sian. 

 

[Sian]

Every registered shoot regardless of discipline, or numbers shooting it, should have a jury Sian. 

​I have just never seen one advertised as such.  At the big shoots I see a notice up somewhere noticeable with the names of the jurors on it but I have never seen anything at registered shoots and I do two every Sunday usually.

 

[LancsLad]

From CPSA rule book.


[SIZE=8pt]1.9 JURY [/SIZE]

[SIZE=7pt]At all registered events an official Jury for the day consisting of no less than five persons will be appointed and must be displayed before shooting starts. The role of the Jury is that of: [/SIZE]

1. [SIZE=7pt]a)  supervising the running of the event. [/SIZE]
   
2. [SIZE=7pt]b)  checking the target settings . [/SIZE]
   
3. [SIZE=7pt]c)  carrying out the duties and responsibilities allocated to them as per the rule book for the discipline concerned. [/SIZE]
   
4. [SIZE=7pt]d)  make all decisions directly relating to the fairness of the competition. [/SIZE]
   
5. [SIZE=7pt]e)  adjudicate on any written complaint received from a competitor. [/SIZE]
   

[SIZE=7pt]Whenever possible the appointed persons shall be experienced in the roles of CPSA Juries and have a thorough knowledge of all technical aspects and rules of the discipline being shot. The Jury must include the shoot organiser or their representative, a senior representative of the shooters and if possible, a qualified referee and/or the most experienced person available. [/SIZE]

[SIZE=7pt]A minimum quorum of 3 Jury members will be required for all decisions [/SIZE]

 

[Rupert]

Glued to the chair some refs.

 

[evoracer]

From CPSA rule book.


[SIZE=8pt]1.9 JURY [/SIZE]

[SIZE=7pt]At all registered events an official Jury for the day consisting of no less than five persons will be appointed and must be displayed before shooting starts. The role of the Jury is that of: [/SIZE]

1. [SIZE=7pt]a)  supervising the running of the event. [/SIZE]
   
2. [SIZE=7pt]b)  checking the target settings . [/SIZE]
   
3. [SIZE=7pt]c)  carrying out the duties and responsibilities allocated to them as per the rule book for the discipline concerned. [/SIZE]
   
4. [SIZE=7pt]d)  make all decisions directly relating to the fairness of the competition. [/SIZE]
   
5. [SIZE=7pt]e)  adjudicate on any written complaint received from a competitor. [/SIZE]
   

[SIZE=7pt]Whenever possible the appointed persons shall be experienced in the roles of CPSA Juries and have a thorough knowledge of all technical aspects and rules of the discipline being shot. The Jury must include the shoot organiser or their representative, a senior representative of the shooters and if possible, a qualified referee and/or the most experienced person available. [/SIZE]

[SIZE=7pt]A minimum quorum of 3 Jury members will be required for all decisions [/SIZE]

​there's not a chance that happens at some of the places i shoot registered 

 

[ips]

i think this refers to events as in championship not Sunday reg shoots.

 

[Will Poon]

Out of interest which ground was it?

 

[Guest]

Glad everyone seems to agree. Don't really want to start naming grounds and refs but as it is a popular decent registered ground and experienced ref I was very disappointed with the decision which obviously puts you in a foul mood for the rest of the shoot. Everyone waiting to shoot kicked up more of a fuss then I did as the referee gave no restrictions and didn't re position himself so he had full view of the bird. 

Lesson learnt I guess, next time I think it may be an issue I will ask for restrictions before shooting. 

 

[FloodDefence]

I think as the ref admitted to you the target was recorded lost as they didn't see it then a bit of discretion should have been used, the situation/reason explained clearly then let you take the pair again. This happened in a FITASC comp I shot about a week ago a single was clearly missed with the first barrel but was out of sight of the ref when the second barrel was fired. Ref told the gun to repeat the target but to miss with the first barrel and attempt a kill with the second. So I would think In your case the target they did see should be recorded appropriately then pair again to decide the other. Just my opinion, I'm no rule book ..

 

[schmokinn]

The Referee is always right, and their decision will stand unless overturned by the Jury.

You would have been a fool to have shot the following pairs in the same place, leading to the same result. But you might have suggested to the Ref that their position became unsighted at some stage.

The Referee cannot possibly be expected to see what you see unless you are happy for them to sit on your shoulders.

However, it was an oversight for the Referee to not be able to see the full travel of each target. Lack of experience, lack of committment and disrespect to the shooter's needs I feel.

​nothing stops them standing behind you and looking over your shoulder so they can see what you see...so they can be expected to see what you see!

 

[paul b]

There will be some shooters on the jury so if it matters that much,ask whoever it is to have a look at the refs position and if he agrees then formally take it up with jury.If its not that big a deal just sugest to the ground owner that there is a problem with where that ref is positioned.