Perception Is Reality. Or Is It?

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Q9 Gil.

For me.... The gun mount to make the perfect shot has to be in the perfect perfect position with the eye on the correct place on the gun.....so the 'gun mount' relies on the automatic memory (from honing your skills) of your mount. But then for me after calling pull the eyes go only to the target and stay on the target until the trigger is pulled. The body does not react to the target until it sees the target clearly (trap shooter). If you react to the flash (from peripheral vision) and move to what you think is the target...too soon.....you are dead. Wait on the mark too long and the target leaves your range of periferal vision ....and you are also dead.

Seeing the target clearly then reacting automatically (due to your memory banks) is what I am trying.....badly to explain....is what I do.

And as you know....the calculation is all done in milliseconds ......that is how clever the brain is.

Hence the importance to honing your skills......with time on the ranges. (the 10,000 hour rule). The more the memory banks fill with consistency of targets killed, the more chance the shooter has of concentrating only on the clay (with the gun in periferal vision). It is impossible to not see the gun (because your head is on it :smile: ) but for me it is how you train the brain ....what to look at and what to ignore ...even though it is still clearly there.

 

[Skeet UK]

iI struggle to understand how others say they see inches of leeed when I see several feet and we are both shooting maintained leeed at the exact same target? May have missed the point but just a thought?

To answer the quoted part of your question, it is nothing to do with Parallax error and so on, I think the others have probably just missed the point of what you meant, especially with a thread that is so jam packed with juicy technical bits

What they are saying is not wrong, but it isn't the reason some see feet and some see inches.

If as you say, you are both shooting the same target with maintained "leed", from the same position...ie. Skeet station 4.

Some see feet at the target, meaning they intend to shoot at a point in space X feet in front of the target.

Some see inches at the muzzle, meaning they put X inches between the muzzle and the target.

The sight picture would be the same for all intents and purposes.

 

[** Pending Removal **]

Nope ....some people use gun speed.....rather than leeeed . L. O. L.

I understood the posts thank you skeetUK sweetie. I was replying to Q9 which was vision in general and did not specify skeet. Hence I applied it to how I see it in trap. I agree and understand exactly what Gil has said. All the neuro stuff is in Vickers 'Quiet Eye' book for those bothered to read it :smile:

I just like Gil's way of explaining it.

If it is a skeet thread now then I will leave you to it.... L. O. L. as I know £@€$ all about skeet.

:smile:

 

[Skeet UK]

Nope ....some people use gun speed.....rather than leeeed . L. O. L.

I understood the posts thank you skeetUK sweetie. I was replying to Q9 which was vision in general and did not specify skeet. Hence I applied it to how I see it in trap. I agree and understand exactly what Gil has said. All the neuro stuff is in Vickers 'Quiet Eye' book for those bothered to read it :smile:

I just like Gil's way of explaining it.

If it is a skeet thread now then I will leave you to it.... L. O. L. as I know £@€$ all about skeet.

:smile:

Hey there.  Actually, I was not responding to anything you wrote at all, that is why I quoted Marks question.  I am not doubting anything anyone said in response to his question generally, but I think in all the technical jargon, they missed one of the simple points of his question, as quoted.

This bit only:

iI struggle to understand how others say they see inches of leeed when I see several feet and we are both shooting maintained leeed at the exact same target? May have missed the point but just a thought?

As we know, some people see "leed" at the muzzle (inches etc) and some see it at the target (feet etc), as I explained...which is why Mark was confused, when one person says give it it "an inch and a half" and Mark is seeing 4 feet before he breaks it!

@Mark Jones: Does that make sense/answer that part of your question, dude?

I love all this brain bandwidth chat, I think it's brilliant! :keeporder:

 

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Only joining in the conversation :smile:

( you did say 'I think the others have probably just missed the point' )

 

[Skeet UK]

Only joining in the conversation :smile:

( you did say 'I think the others have probably just missed the point' )

That's right...they missed the point at the end that I quoted.

iI struggle to understand how others say they see inches of leeed when I see several feet and we are both shooting maintained leeed at the exact same target? May have missed the point but just a thought?

That is what he asked and that is the part that I am referring to; not the rest of his post, as you have all answered that very well.

The answer is not parallax, nor swing through as he states "maintained leed"..the answer is, that some people are seeing the leed as inches at the muzzles and some are seeing it as feet at the target.

 

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I will wait to hear the answer from the man himself, as i am interested in what he says, but thank you anyway :smile:

 

[Skeet UK]

I will wait to hear the answer from the man himself, as i am interested in what he says, but thank you anyway :smile:

Which man would that be, just to clarify...?

 

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Terribly sorry if i was not being clear....but the man who posted the question at post 9. Gil Ash. I am interested in people who are experts on something that I have been looking at as a 'newbie' .....I am always eager to learn new things from people who interest me.

Gil is definitely someone who interests me and who i can learn from. 

You see you can teach an old dog new tricks if it is ready to learn with an open mind.

Woof woof.... :smile: .

 

[EdLyons]

As mentioned: parallax error.

Yes, definitely!

I had taken parallax error (PE) as a given as discussed by the issue raised with pupillary distance, however I had omitted that simply standing in a different place will induce PE also.

For those still unsure about PE, imagine a pencil lying parallel to a ruler. If we try to "measure" the length of the pencil, but look at it from 3 different positions, we will get three different readings. A simple Bingle search will show the diagram.

The original post was just ONE reason why, in my experience, the clay flight path will look different.

In the original case, we had an individual that was experiencing spatial awareness disruption due to uncorrected hypermetropic error. Combined with a low accommodation/convergence ratio and inefficient motor fusional vergence reflex, this caused a decompensated hetero(eso)phoria. When the visual axes were in such a position that the images fell outside Panum's Fusional area, then depth perception was compromised...

I reckon we'll just say "focus"... 

 

[Skeet UK]

Ed.

Can you just clarify my point at post #21

All I was doing was responding to the part of Marks question that I quoted, with the fact that some see "leed" at the muzzle in inches and some see it in feet at the target, as simple as that.  Given that the same target is being shot with maintained lead, as Mark suggests.  

 

[EdLyons]

Totally right! I think it is just some people use the inches at the muzzle as a reference point, others feet at the clay.

I've heard some say it "needs a five bar gate" and others say "two inches".

Gil has some interesting anecdotal evidence as to a gender bias, with more men seeing feet at the clay, and more women seeing inches at the barrel. Any thoughts Nic?

What I do know for certain is when we start trying to do both, then we're stuffed!

 

[Skeet UK]

Totally right! I think it is just some people use the inches at the muzzle as a reference point, others feet at the clay.

I've heard some say it "needs a five bar gate" and others say "two inches".

Gil has some interesting anecdotal evidence as to a gender bias, with more men seeing feet at the clay, and more women seeing inches at the barrel. Any thoughts Nic?

What I do know for certain is when we start trying to do both, then we're stuffed!

Cheers Ed, much appreciated.  :jig:

As an aside, I know a bit about parallax, both from my long distance rifle shooting days and also due to my "Geeky" interest in Space and celestial bodies (apart from my wife's!).

I just ran the numbers on Parallax error due to a cast issue, or head misalignment.

For a 30 inch barrelled shotgun, with a presumed sight base of 1m (about 39 inches), being that the sighting eye is about 9 inches behind the breech.

A 1/4 inch (6.35mm) error in rib eye alignment, would give you a 240mm or just under 10 inch difference in POI on a 40 yard target...

If you swap out the 1/4 inch cast error, for a full cross dominance issue with a PD of 67mm, that brings the POI error to around 2.7m difference!

Food for thought . . . :hunter:

 

[Adam]

I remember when I first started teaching Rachel it soon became evident that as I see feet at the target she was and still is very much inches at the barrel, it took some time for me to be able to adapt and convert what I see into something that she saw. But it worked out well in the end

 

[** Pending Removal **]

Totally right! I think it is just some people use the inches at the muzzle as a reference point, others feet at the clay.

I've heard some say it "needs a five bar gate" and others say "two inches".

Gil has some interesting anecdotal evidence as to a gender bias, with more men seeing feet at the clay, and more women seeing inches at the barrel. Any thoughts Nic?

What I do know for certain is when we start trying to do both, then we're stuffed!

Well Ed....in the days when i did shoot Fitasc sporting i always saw leeeed at the target not the barrel. Anything that needed lots was (for me) a spot shot way out front, depending on the leeeed i saw from the person in front (normally I shot behind Manuel every time......we were the original 'composed squad' :smile: ).

Now in trap, i do not see lead..............i just close me eyes and shoot with 'the force'.

............true story (look at the scores....it is obvious that i have my eyes closed).

 

[Mark Jones]

Skeet U K, your reply to my question was exactly as I thought. I agree ans was more suggesting that people shouldn't be looking for a leeed picture at the muzzle as this can stop the swing of the gun and finishing the s hot off correctly and cause. A miss.

I also think, and am not sure who said it that parallax error is only a consideration when you are trying to aim something material I.e. a shotgun in this case at a target and assuming the 100% master eye is over the rib as it should be or something such as ocular tape has been used to correct this then the only other factors that should affect parallax is the gun fit and consistacy of the mount.

I don't really see how shooter build or height can measurably affect target kill picture with a shotgun?

Finally, as Nicola said when she shoots trap she will be shooting swing through, in this case I would assume everyone should see the same picture, front edge of clay with smooth follow through.

I hope what I said made sense to some of you, if not I will try to re word it.

Seems one of the most interesting threads on here for a fair while!

 

[Gil Ash]

nic.....what you are taking about is NEURAL SUPPRESSION and that is really what dominance is and it can fluctuate .....in fact our research shows and has been substantiated by science that dominance can shift and most people are more center dominate with a right or left preference than strongly right or left......the dominance tests that have be used for ages are flawed in that they make you choose right or left and total eliminate the possibility of center with right or left preference.....

ED THIS WOULD BE ANOTHER REASON PERCEPTIONS are different for different shooters....this is also why having a constant like gun speed equaling target speed makes things seem more similar to the same shooter shot to shot....but few shooters will perceive the same when they shoot the same target..........PARALLAX DOES have something to do with it (especially with those high rib guns) as well so as we can see there are a lot of reasons successful shooters on the same target see different pictures......

we have developed something i would like to show here but my technical skills don't allow me to know how to get into this post and if there were someone out there who could assist i would appreciate it or you could go to our web site www.ospschool.com and click on knowledge Vault and look at the animations on the sales page and you would see where the eyes really are when you shoot....would love to put up one our newest animations that illustrate this point and will eliminate all confusion regardless of how or what you perceive when you shoot a target with a shot gun....

when you finally know exactly what it is you are supposed to see and are clear to the brain what it is you want the brain will begin to suppress the data in the shot that is either not relative or confusing and your focus is enhanced and your perceptions will become more consistent.....Ed hope someone will help me with this....

Byw we will be coming over there to show all these illustrations in Sept and man will that be a party...........

~!@#$%^& cheers

GA

 

[Skeet UK]

http://www.ospknowledgevault.com/vault/preview

That is the page.  I can't put the animations in the post as I cannot source the URL for each

 

[paul b]

just had a look at some of the animations and was wondering why bum, belly, beak, bang isnt used on the dove?I am realy enjoying this thread and trying to keep a open mind,but is all this info just going to cause more problems when trying to shoot with a empty mind set.

 

[Gil Ash]

Check out the virtual shooter Brian and look at where his eyes are as the shot is taken on a right to left shot for a right handed shooter....they are both across the gun.....which is how you must see this shot and the barrel is a part of the shot but the information from the non shooting eye must be suppressed by the brain.....do you see what I mean?

now go down to the straight down 2D with voice over and see that both eyes are to the left of the gun on a left to right......once the shooter understands and is clear as to where their eyes need to be then the brain can begin the suppression and the sight pictures become clearer and clearer.....and the scores become higher and higher......not before...

check it our and lemeno what you tink....btw will have my It guy do it for us.....run it on the web site and you might find it interesting.

~!@#$%^&*  cheers

GA